I hope no one will object to my entering this item here in the Femme
conference, but I really can't think of a better place for it.
   A lot has been said about images of women on TV and in the movies.  To
summarize it, almost all of the women in the media are beautiful and
glamorous, and this does a lot of damage to the confidence of real-life
women, leading (for one thing) to eating disorders.  It's also a fact that
twice as many women go through a major depression in their lives than do men.
   Not long ago I was thinking about this problem, and it occurred to me
that there was a similar phenomenon going on with men in the media,
although it is subtler, so you can't hold up a picture of it and say
"*This* is what I mean!" I think that inasmuch as women are often
portrayed as beautiful, men are almost always portrayed as _strong_.  At
least, heroes are.  (I don't mean physically strong, necessarily, but
strong in some way; often it involves protecting or saving a heroine.)
Now, maybe that's just a part of being a hero, you might argue.  And maybe
it is.  But my question is, might this not do as much damage to men's
confidence as the portrayal of beautiful women does to real-life women? 
   Perhaps we also ought to ask just how meaningful these stereotypes are.
A lot of the attraction of being beautiful or strong is that it seems to
be the way people in the media attract members of the opposite sex.  Is
this true in real life too?  What I'd particularly like to know is:  Are
most women really drawn to strong men?

31 responses total.

This is a great topic and some throought provoking questions.  I think most
suitable for here.  Any stereotype does damage to individuals, especially to
those who believe the stereotype (both men and women, children and their
parents). I am trying to think of what "strong men" means to me and the first
thing that comes to mind is "able to be free and true to himself".  That
includes being able to be soft and tender, warm and loving, gentle and
confident.  These are qualities I like in all people, not just men.  But I am
especially drawn to men who are not tied to behave in stereotypical ways.  We
are safest with people who are honest and consistent, in that way, trustworthy,
predictable. These are some of the behavioral qualities I associate with
\"strong men."

   A very candid and thoughtful response.  I guess it's that word confident
that gets me.  How can one be both confident and honest?  A stereotypical
complaint of women about men is that they won't admit when they're lost
and won't ask for help whn they need it.  I don't like asking for help,
probably because if I do I feel that I'm opening myself up to ridicule.
I see a correlation there between my fear of ridicule and the "societal
expectation" that men should be confident.

I never equate admitting I'm wrong or asking for help with a lack of
confidence.  Think about asking for assistance with confidence and see if you
can picture yourself doing that.  I do it all the time.  Maybe its in the tone,
or maybe in the words.  I always think I'm giving someone an opportunity to be
useful and feel good when they assist me, not superior.  After all, even though
I'm quite intelligent and competent, I can't possible know everything.  That
wouldn't be confidence, it would be arrogance and stupidity if I believed I
knew everything and could never learn something from someone else.  But I think
I understand your last line, that the expectation that a man be confident may
be a great deal of pressure (and I can see where a fear of ridicule would fit
there).  But my response to that is that no one can be confident, or any other
attribute, all of the time.  That's not part of my expectation.  Being
confident of your competence in a number of areas of your life would be what I
would find attractive.  Does that make sense and fit?

Yes.  Which areas?

How does a man express this to a woman he is interested in?  It seems all
the pressure to start relationships rests with men, but women are ultimately
in control.  I am confident but not (I believe) arrogant.  How should I let
a woman I am interested in know this about me?????

Jason, why are women ultimately in control?  Don't you have the same rights
to establish how you feel about the relationship and to end it if you
feel it's appropriate?
as far as letting women know about items in your basic nature it's a three
step process:
1) Define for yourself, what these things are about yourself.  You can't
express things that you're no entirely clear on.

2) Tell her honestly and clearly what's on your mind.  I admire forthrightness
in a man.

3) Show her by actions.  They always speak louder than words.  

oh, and remember to listen closely for feedback.  You might not get it right
aay.  I hope this helps.

Hmmm, not as many opinions as I had hoped for.  Perhaps the consensus
of the silent majority is that beauty in women is just plain unimportant,
but strength in men is?  And therefore if images of strong men in the
media make real men feel inadequate, that's as it should be?

getting off that tangeant...I  think you are right
to a point.  We are all suposed to look beyond a woman's
beauty, but men  are still supposed to be
strong.  One question? Do you refer to physical, emotional,
or economic strength?  Sorry
about the choppy lines, having problems...

I mean strong in general; I think it takes many forms.  The most
consistent way I see it in the media is the ability to protect a woman
from whatever it is she needs protecting from.  But I'm curious to hear
what kinds of strength other people think are important, if any.

This response has been erased.

Emotional strength.  If he has that and isn't scum, he won't be trying to
suck off me.  (Rich has it's good points, but anyone who puts $ in front 
of the emotional stuff is a whore.)  Life with a Mr Moneymuscle who needed
a therapist more than a SO, or suffered from macho-type obcessive/compulsive
disorders, or got into SO abuse, or whatever would be hell, though.

The biggest moneymaker of all time in the media is Mr. Arnold 
Schwartznegger.  The man can't act his way out of a cardboard box;
he still can't speak English fluently, after years in this country.
He is popular for two reasons:  stage presence, and biceps the size
of oil barrels.  A review of Running Man (I believe, maybe Total
Recall) by a female reviewer (the same one in the Free Press that
didn't like Croc Dundee II because the star had left his wife for the other
star) complained that we didn't get to see Arnie shirtless, so the movie
was no good.
Clearly, a concrete example of physical strength being held up as
a very positive thing in men.

How do I feel about that?  Eh.  I'm happy that an Austrian immigrant was
able to realize the American dream in an age that so few people are.
I'm more irritated by people I know personally putting me down for my
weight and lack of physical fitness  (and I'm not that heavy).  I was
concerned for a coworker who wanted to take steriods because he wanted to
bulk up for the girls.  Small potatoes stuff, compared to what thewomen
in this country have to go through.  Not that it doesn't hurt -- it does.
But I also remember that someone not so attractive or bulky (i.e. Bruce
Willis) played a similar role and was successful at it.  That someone
like Bruce Willis could be in the league of Sly and Arnie is a positive thing.

I'll stop woolgathering now...  The point is, I've seen the strength=manliness
thing in the media.  I read reviews of Batman that complained about his 
feelings.  I don't agree that self-sufficiency is a good thing for everyone;
to quote REM, everybody hurts sometimes, and strength to the point of
callousness or iron-willedness is not a positive thing.  I try to ignore it,
but, yes,  Mark, it does bother me.

i  DON'T GET IT?

This response has been erased.

ugly women are nice too

Was the original question:  Are men affected by the "macho" stereotype 
much like women are affected by the "beauty" stereotype?

If so, my $.02 worth says yes, but to a much lower degree of intensity.  I 
believe that both stereotypes have a complement, or belief about those members
not meeting the standard.  The women not in the "beauty" template are treated
more negatively than the men out of the "macho" image.  

   #0 was comparing the "societal expectation" that women be beautiful with 
the less publicized but, in my opinion, equally prevalent expectation 
that men be *strong*.  I was deliberately open ended about what was meant 
by strong; but it certainly isn't limited to machismo, or physical 
prowess.
   Here's an example I remember seeing in a sitcom a while back:  woman 
has biopsy, and goes to the doctor to find out the results of the test.  
Doctor makes woman wait for a long time before he will see her.  Man 
comes in, sees woman waiting, goes out, grabs doctor from other room, forces
him to give results (which are negative) to woman.  Woman is subsequently
very attracted to man.
   Can you imagine the genders being reversed?  I can't.  A sitcom man 
would be humiliated to have a woman protect him like that.
   My contention in #0 was that just as the message "you must be thin and
beautiful or you are nothing" gets through to a lot of women, and damages 
them, the message "you must always be strong or you are nothing" gets 
through to a lot of men, and is likewise hurtful.
   Perhaps, Veena, you and I will simply disagree on this one, because we 
have each experienced one expectaion and not the other.

Now linked to homme (at aruba's request)

I guess I'd approach this by working through the following technique:  I'd
consider some of my very best attributes, then I'd think about the
strength thing, then I'd give careful consideration to which of my valued
characteristics I'd be willing to trade for being "strong".  Within a very
short time I suspect it would become clear that a lot of what you value
about yourself might even be in conflict with the gender-based strength
model. 

An intelligent and articulate man wouldn't need to resort to pulling the
doctor out of whatever he was doing in order to see to his SO's needs
ahead of everyone else's.  If it came to the point where she was being
jerked around by office staff or the doctor then there are other far more
effective techniques than strong-arming the doc or otherwise acting out. 
So, would you be willing to trade your considered and effective
communication skills, which serve you so well in most situations, for this
macho-image style which is unpredictably effective at best? 

Would you respect a woman who expected you to act in such a manner?
Would you respect yourself?

It is fun and probably healthy to fantasize about what life would be like
with different physical, emotional, and intellectual attributes.  We all
do it from time to time.  But all of what makes us US is woven into a
tapestry where each color makes sense in context.  And it's with that
understanding we make peace with who we are. 

My first reaction to the sitcom doctor scenario was, no, i couldn't see it
with a "strong" female and a passive male.

Then it occurred to me:  that's exactly how Valerie and I would act.
I would sit there, passively accepting the wait, and Valerie would rip
in, tell the doctor that we're the customers, and that we're tired of
being ignored, etc etc etc.  That other people are waiting is irrelevant:
if the doctor has arranged to meet with us at a specific time, the fact
that he overbooked himself and has other patients is irrelevant.  No,
Valerie is not *usually* that pushy, but if we're waiting for important
yes-or-no news, then, yes, she does act like that.

In her aggressiveness, she balances my passivity, so that is part of what
I love about her.  

This response has been erased.

Aw, valerie, wouldn't YOU yell at my doctors?
<brighn flutters eyebrows>

Re #19: That was a very beautiful response, Mary.  I'm not sure, though,
what I'd be willing to trade.  Frankly, the image of a man who's able to
stand up to everything life has and also protect the woman he loves is
deeply ingrained in my head.  I have never been like that, and none of the
women I've been involved with have expected (or desired) that from me, but
I can't dismiss it either. 
   I'm a bit curious if any women around here *do* think that a man acting
like the one in the sitcom is attractive?  I know Valerie said in #10,
"I'd say strength is valuable in everyone, male *or* female" - does that 
apply to the situation described?  (It's pretty unfair to quote someone's 
13 month-old responses, I realize...)  

It depends on how literally I should take "grabs the doctor" and
"forces him ..."  Mindless tactlessness is a turnoff.  Someone
speaking on my behalf more forcefully and convincingly than I
have been able to speak for myself, but still within the bounds
of courtesy, has some definite attraction.
I don't know anything about sitcom males of the '90s, but I can
imagine the genders being reversed if the woman had something like
special medical expertise.

I"m sorry if I see it this way, but I see too many primped women going out
with overweight and emotionally insecure guys.  Men have an iron-will of not
changing without major reward or threat.  As can be cleary be seen in the male
fashion industry, which changes little from decade to decade.  Most men can
joke early in life about having a little fat on them, and the depressed boy
gets payed attention too, more oft then the depressed girl.  And when that
bot is depressed someone gets the blame (X-gf, Bad grades etcetra).  Yet, we
all know the emotional distress of just being alive can not be to blam, unless
all of society is included.  Regardless of race,sex, etc.

Scuzz, I'm kind of puzzled by your objection to attractive (ie, thin?) people
dating "overweight" (over whose weight?) people.

Then again, I think I see your major point ... that many times men are
unwilling to make changes in themselves to adapt to other peoples needs unless
there is a major incentive.  I've known a lot of men like that -- but I also
know a lot of sensitive, conscientious men.

Isn't it unfortunate that people even have to be put into these
catergories...When will the human race learn?  

Don't think the whole human race will ever learn to be humanistic to one
another.  On the other hand, I have hope for many individuals.  And,
generally,  I find the individuals who,post on Grex to be good models for
others in terms of trying to look beyond the surface, not overgeneralize or
put people into pigeon holes.  Hoprfeully, some of the others, a young 'uns
who can learn by example.

Rereading that last response, I realise I should have edited it before
posting.  Sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry.

I tend to agree with you; but as an individual you can make an
attempt in your personal life.
The only problem is that there will always be heaps of
non-caring egoists around.
Listening to others certainly makes a good start in understanding
people from whatever origin. (Whether this difference is based
on religion, culture, background, political points of view and
last but certainly not least, gender).

To complete my attribution to this item:
Physical strength is a typical symptom of the skindeep
attitude towards life these days. Just as the Pamela Anderson
shape should be attractive to men (uch...silicon valley strikes
again). Whatever people look like, what really matters is the
person behind their appaerance. I know I can easily say and in
real life act in another way (will you ever know?). O.k.,
admitted I like to look at people I think are attractive,
but if they haven't a personality I'm turned off immeddiately.
Therefore, even though the media present the heroes and
heroins according to the standards they use, in real life it
doesn't matter.
I'd rather spend my days and nights with somebody that's got
something to say (and they mean anything) than with anice
body and nothing else. That would be utterly boring.

That things in medialand can be different is illustrated
by Roseanne Barr and John Goodman, who are
by no means the exemples of what's considered the standard
in easthetics. But they certainly beat the
emptyheadedness of a Beverly Hills 000000.

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