Researchers at Linda Loma University say theirs good news for young vegetarian
girls, who typically reach menarche and experience growth spurts later than 
their non-vegetarian class mates.

The delayed growth pattern and late menarche may reduce their risk of breast
cancer, since being older during menarche is associated with a lower risk of
breast cancer later in life.

The phenomenon of young girls who adhere to a lact-ovo* vegetarian diet
tend to lag by an inch or so at ages 11 and 12 compared to non-vegetarians
has been born out by studies of Seventh day Adventist children. 

*ovo-lacto vegetarian--a diet including milk and eggs but no creature flesh

The Vegetarian journal reports that the girls typically go on to attain the
same height as their non-veggie neighbors.

32 responses total.

Are you saying the Seventh Day Adventists are ovo-lacto vegetarians?
Did they not also give birth to the Branch Davidians?

Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarians.  Does it have something
to do with their beliefs?

Also, I have heard that some studies have indicated that a diet with
too much protein may contribute to breast cancer and to osteoperosis.
I haven't read or heard of any duplication of follow up of these
studies.  I would think with the influence of the meat producers 
associations that such studies and their results might be difficult
to find.  Has anyone else heard/read anything on the subject?

(warning: long response)

I once talked to a vegetarian Seventh Day Adventist.  She said her
religion asks her to keep herself healthy, including eating well.
I asked if the religion requires her to follow a specific diet,
like the way Judaism asks people to keep Kosher, or do the rules
simply say "eat well according to the latest nutritional thinking?"
I'm about 90% sure she said the rules say to follow the latest
nutritional thinking.

The current issue of Nutrition Action Healthletter, published by the Center
for Science in the Public Interest, is mostly about whether protein is good
or bad for you.  They discuss protein in relation to several health
problems.  Here's the Osteoporosis section of the article.
----------
Osteoporosis:
Could eating large amounts of protein weaken your bones by leaching
calcium out of them?

In his book _The McDougal Plan_, physician John McDougall claims that the
American appetite for meat produces "calcium-deficient bones that break
with the slightest provocation, such as a sneeze..."

And, adds John Robbins in his _Diet for a New America_, "...the promotion
of [protein-rich] dairy products as an answer [to osteoporosis]... seems to
me to be not only self-serving, but even criminal."

This kind of talk understandably alarms _Nutrition Action_ readers like
Dorothy Wolf of Alto, Michigan.

"Help!" she writes.  "I'm getting conflicting information.  I'd like to
know if I and my daughter should be cutting back on dairy products in order
to increase our bone mass and ward off osteoporosis."

No, you shouldn't.  Mcdougall and Robbins are exaggerating.

It's true that as you eat more protein (both animal and plant), your
kidneys filter more calcium out of your blood and into your urine.

But the amount of calcium you lose isn't as great as researchers once
thought.  And it's possible that, at some point, your body adapts and you
stop losing calcium.

When John Anderson of the University of North Carolina recently fed people
extra dairy protein, within a few hours after the meal they had lost 10 to
20 mg of calcium... the amount you'd find in a tablespoon of milk.

What's more, studies such as this one seldom last more than two weeks.
That's far too short a time to see whether the body eventually adapts to
large amounts of protein by conserving its calcium, according to Mona
Calvo, an osteoporosis expert at the Food and Drug Administration.

In the meantime, there is little evidence that regularly eating large
amounts of protein, whether plant or animal, increases the risk of
osteoporosis.  If it did, we would expect vegetarians -- who generally eat
less protein than meat-eaters -- to have stronger bones.

Although that was the conclusion of a 1980 study, more recent studies
failed to show less osteoporosis among vegetarians.

It's true that countries with the highest rates of osteoporosis (the United
States and Sweeden, for example) consume the most protein and calcium.

"But that doesn't mean the protein and calcium are causing the
osteoporosis," points out Mark Hegsted, a former Harvard School of Public
Health professor who has researched the link between calcium and
osteoporosis.  "It could be something else in their diet or lifestyle."

As for drinking milk and eating other calcium-rich dairy products, there's
no need to worry about their protein cancelling out their calcium, say
Calvo and Anderson.  The large surplus of calcium in dairy products easily
outweighs any small losses of the mineral which might occur because of
their protein.

The dairy industry, as you might imagine, has sponsored a good deal of
research in this area.  In one of the best studies, Daniel Baran of the
University of Massachusetts Medical School gave women in their 30s and 40s
dairy foods containing 500 mg a day of calcium.  That's the equivalent of
two cups of milk.  After three years, the women had lost no calcium from
their spines, unlike women not given extra dairy products every day.

The best advice for women who want to avoid osteoporosis is to eat plenty
of calcium-rich foods (and that includes low-fat dairy), to get lots of
exercise, and to stop (or not start) smoking.
----------

Here's the summary from the end of the article:
----------
The Bottom Line:
 * You don't need *any* animal protein to be healthy.
 * Heart Disease.  Switching even some of your animal protein to
   plant protein could lower your cholesterol, especially if it's high.
 * Cancer.  There is little evidence linking protein to cancer in
   humans.  The only consistent link is with liver cancer in animals.
 * Osteoporosis.  If you're a woman who wants to avoid osteoporosis
   (it's not a problem for most men) eat plenty of calcium-rich foods
   (and that includes low-fat dairy), get lots of exercise, and stop
   (or don't start) smoking.
 * Kidney disease.  The American Diabetes Association recommends that
   diabetics not exceed their daily RDA for protein.  Other people
   need not worry.
----------

Here's the reference list from the article:
The first three references go to the section on heart disease; the last
two go to the section on protein and osteoporosis.
----------
Lancet 2: 709, 1980
Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism 29: 348, 1983
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 38: 245, 1983
Journal of the American Dietetic Association 76: 148, 1980
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 70: 264, 1990.

(this is now hippie item 48 and cooking item 43).

Hi once again Valerie.  Are you in every conference?  I could not find a
conference for vegans, this is close.  Does anyone know the vitamin B-12
content of the different seaweeds?  All I found was the fact that most algae,
like people, need B12.  Land plants do not.  It is involved in DNA synthesis,
or was it protein synthesis.  I am trying to cook vegan and it is either
seaweed or vitamin pills.  Sounds like we are closer relatives of kelp than
of oak trees.  Only non-animal B12 sources are said to be seaweeds and tempeh,
does anyone know the B12 content of tempeh?  The USDA insists that no B12 is
found in any vegetables, but also does not list seaweed or tempeh as vegetable
foods.  The Internet was not helpful, but I am inexperienced there.  By the
way, kelp is supposed to be as high in calcium as dark green land vegetables.
You can buy 4 oz dried at China Merchandise for 79 cents.  They also had laver
but I could not find it last trip.  B12 shortages cause anemia, but first they
cause nerve damage.  Most sources say you need to ingest 2-3 mg, which means
to eat 6 micrograms (not milli, micro), but Laurel's kitchen said that is the
recommended daily allowance, and people with the ability to absorb it properly
only need .1 microgram per day to compensate for losses.  An egg has about
1 microgram.  A cup of fresh milk 1, reconstituted from powder .68.  The two
vegan cookbooks at the library, both new, are always out.

I thought that some soy milk was B12 fortified so that vegans could get
enough.  Or is the source of that B12 not cool with you?

Hi keesan!  Welcome to the conferences!  Are you reading from the hippie or
the kitchen conference?  I haven't seen PicoSpan use its auto-dredge feature
in years, but it used it on this item for me just now.  That is, it showed
me responses from as far back as 1993.  Weird.


One vegan source of B12 is nutritional yeast, *if* it was cultured on a medium
that contained B12.  The Red Star nutritional yeast that they sell at the
People's Food Co-op contains B12.  It's pretty decent tasting, a bit salty
and interesting, and not at all like either baking or brewers yeast.  Some
people like it sprinkled over popcorn or other foods, or mixed into white
sauces.

re 3:  Here's another thing to add to the osteoporosis-prevention
list:  Don't lose too much body fat.  When young women and girls
lose enough body fat to cause cessation of menses, their reproductive
hormone levels change drastically as the body goes into starvation
mode.  Bone mineralization is effected by a wealth of different
influences, some of which are hormonal.  Women and girls need
estrogen in amounts sufficient to prevent decalcification of
their bones.  That's one of the reasons why some menopausaL
women receive hormone replacement therapy.

When it comes to bone mineral density and risk of osteoporosis,
diet is only one part of the picture.  

(btw:  back to the list in resp 3: the exercise should be
weight-bearing, so that the bones do some work.  They 
mineralize in response to weight-bearing activity.  Swimming,
therefore, won't fill the bill in this sense.)

Thanks for the soymilk and nutritional yeast suggestions, but I don't see that
eating yeast which was fed B-12, or soymilk to which someone added B-12, are
any different from taking vitamin pills.  The mold which ferments soybeans
to tempeh makes its own B-12, as do marine algae.  Maybe I can ask the
question of someone on the Internet, and share the answer as to how many
ounces of dried kelp meet the minimum daily requirement for B12 (which is .1
microgram, recommended 2-3 being enough to cover all problem cases).

I found a good website on B12  Earthsave Canada.  Apparently B12 is not made
by the molds in tempeh but by contaminating bacteria (also in miso) but modern
products are not contaminated.  Garden soil hass B12 in the bacteria.  B12
is made by blue-green algae and by bacteria living in the digestive systems
of most animals (not people, who have been carnivores for too long), and by
bacteria in seawater, whence it may be absorbed by larger algae, in again
unpredictable amounts.  Short of eating fresh garden soil, that sseems to
leave bluegreen algae and supplements.  Red Star nutritional yeast has 1
microgram in 1 tsp powder or 2 twp flakes and sounds like a much better idea
than the suggested fortified breakfast cereals.  If only I could figure out
how to grow those helpful bacteria hydroponically.  Don't really want to be
eating a pound of dirt a day.  Earthsave Canada has no local chapters.  They
can be e-mailed at office@earthsave.bc.ca.  That is, no Michigan chapters,
lots in California (Earthsave INternational, that is).  Thanks for the Red
Star suggestion.  We don't buy soymilk, try to avoid packaging and have
learned to make our own.  Does anyone know of a good recipe for growing B12
producing bacteria safely and nutritiously?  If not, will try the yeast.

re beans and flatulence.  From the Internet, I learned that Beano is
alpha-galactosidase (an enzyme which dissolves the disaccharides which we
can't digest, and which cause flatulence).  Beano is obtained from Aspergillus
molds.  The same enzyme is also found in guar, coffee and avocado.  Avocado
is expensive, but miso and soysauce are fermented by Aspergillus molds.  As
a test, we ate beans-cabbage-onions plain (lots of flatulence), with soysauce
(no help), with fermented tofu (fermented by Rhizopus) no help, soaked with
a piece of kelp briefly after cooking (no help) and finally, after a day's
soaking with kelp (which is supposed to digest the protein) and miso.  Not
a bit of flatulence.  Miso is probably tastier than Beano.  We used the soy
and barley variety, on the theory that it was better able to digesst sugars
and starches than the plain soy variety.  Add to the beans after cooking and
cooling down.  Non-gassy legumes are lentils, split peas, black eyed peas,
lima beans, chickpease (if soaked and drained before boiling).  Miso may also
be helpful for flatulence from fried cabbage and onions, but we did not do
a separate controlled study.  Any volunteers?  We should also test miso
without the kelp and vice versa, but are getting tired of being guinea pigs.

Wow, that's some impressive experimentation!

For what it's worth, I actually like the taste of Beano.  It's pretty close
to soy sauce.  And you only need 3-5 drops for a meal, so you don't taste it
much.

Interesting about the miso/soaking-with-kelp preventing flatulence.  I've
never found a solution for flatulence that works well.  But, although I like
miso, I'd never tried using it as a flatulence-preventative.  I'll have to
try that.

I've also noticed that canned beans seem to cause much less flatulence than
dried beans.

That sauce that the beans are in in the can is actually what contains most
of the fart-stuff, I believe.  This is one of the reasons that you are
supposed to soak dry beans and keep changing out the water.
(From what I've been told, anyway...:)

sprouting is supposed to help, too, as is rubbing off the husks aafter boiling
for a few minutes, as the husks contain most of hte problem compounds.  (husk
meaning skin here).  Make sure not to cook the miso, or get the pasteurized
variety sold in sealed plastic bags.  We got the coop red miso.  You can also
soak flour, or cracked wheat or rye, overnight, to improve digestibility, and
increase sugar content.  Supposedly the Romans sprouted their barley, then
roasted it, then ground it up and had instant barley gruel for marches,
presweetened with barley malt.  Sprouting causes the enzymes to break down
starches to sugars.  You can try the same with other grains.

Don't recall where the discussion of sprouting ended up (some other
conference, I think), but I wanted to let people know that rye (and presumably
other northern-grown grains) will sprout at 60 degrees, and I did not need
to rig up a styrofoam box with a lightbulb, as suggested.  But I do have to
remember to rinse the seeds every day, as they dry out otherwise, and only
the seeds in the middle of the pile sprouted.  Which seeds need it over 60
to sprout?

While catsitting for a neighbor, I noticed that People's Food Coop
multivitamins (which happen to contain no iron, apparently they don't think
vegetarians need it, though plant iron is only absorbed about a fifth or a
tenth as well), consist primarily of 'brown rice bran' (is there white rice
bran), sea vegetables (kelp?), and 'greens (including spirulina).  The B12
comes from spirulina.  I did a bit of internet research.
        

   From Larry Robert Semark <semark@unm.edu>

Here is an excerpt from a text written by Ted Altar based mainly on researches
that Victor Herbert has made on B12 in correlation with vegans. I think this
text may be quite credible.

"Apparently, the problem with algae sources like spirulina or nori is not only
that they are low in what is being NOW measured as B12 by newer methods (see
Herbert, 1988), but that it may not be a true B12 but possibly contains what
has been referred to as noncobalamin analogues of B12 that might actually
interfere with the absorption of true B12. In any case, "B12" from spirulina or
nori, if it is true B12, is simply NOT bioavailable (see Dagnelie, 1991)."



I found another reference to sea vegetables and tempeh, miso and
other plant sources containing noncobalamine analogs of B12, which 
interfere with B12 absorption.

As regards the RDA, one source gave 1 microgram/day, with 2 as a safety
factor.  Another gave 3.2 micrograms/day for premenopausal women (B12 is
needed to absorb iron, if you can't absorb the b12 you get pernicious
anemia and it must be injected instead).

Redstar nutritional yeast, type T-6635+, contains more B12 than other
types.
One source said it has 2 micrograms per teaspoon.
Another source, who talked to the supplier or the factory, said .5
micrograms per gram, and one heaping tablespoon (5-6 teaspoons) is 8
grams, which would make 4 micrograms per heaping tablespoon, or 4
micrograms per 6 teaspoons, or .7 micrograms/teaspoon.  The same source
said other nutritional yeasts have less than 1 microgram per gram

A third source talked to someone working for Red Star and understood 8
micrograms/gram.  They may have been confused.

At .7 micrograms/teaspoon, if you need 2 micrograms/day that is one level
tablespoon, and a heaping tablespoon should be plenty for premenopausal
women.  


Since I am still cold most of the time, I am probably not getting enough
iron, or not enough B12.  I don't like nutritional yeast, but will try
to hide it in other foods (adding spices to the rice with it).  Or buy B12
pills, if they are cheaper than Kroger 100/$6 multivitamins.  You are also
supposed to have vitamin C with your iron for better absorption, and the
multivitamins have a bit of iron as well.  I have found a cheap source of
not highly absorbable iron - rusty nails soaked in a cup of water, used to
cook rice or oatmeal.  I also soak eggshells in water and citric acid (the
calcium is more absorbable as citrate) for extra calcium.  I figured rusty
water was at least as good as using an iron pot.
        Another reason people get cold is too little body fat.  I lost
5-10 pounds a few years ago and that could also be the cause, but I am too
busy to try to gain weight, we tend not to eat much before dark.

Start snacking on baked beans and peanut butter.

Peanut butter is a refined food.  Baked beans have refined sugar in them. 
We put lots of refined olive oil and tahini in stuff already.  What I need
to do is eat more often, such as before 2 pm, not eat more refined foods.
That reminds me, I should be thinking of something to add to the rice for
supper, I could fry tempeh and fresh green onions, that is greasy enough.

I assumed you'd go with the more natural versions....  You could eat
plain organic peanuts instead - the only difference is that you eat 'em
by the handful, not the spoonful.  Baked beans are really easy to make
if you're home most of the day, and you can use dark brown sugar, molassas,
honey, or whatever you like to make them.  The idea is to get eating some
fairly healthy foods that have plenty of calories and are very convenient
to snack on during the day.

We eat peanuts (we buy them raw).  We do not cook with brown sugar (which is
refined white sugar with molasses added) or molasses, and see no reason at
all to add any sort of sugar to what we are eating.  We pressure cook our
beans.  I prefer them without sugar.  The problem is that if there is anything
precooked, it gets eaten immediately.  (Jim regulates his appetite by what
there is available to eat - he eats until it is all eaten).  Cold oatmeal
tends to stay around for a while, but I find it not very palatable.  I agree
that it would help to have such things around, but what can I do?

Try to keep eating from a personal stash of peanuts that Jim doesn't know
about/dare touch/whatever.  Try to find something calorie-laden that's
convenient for you to snack on but Jim doesn't like (heh).  Maybe you'll
just be stuck being underweight.

Having recently met Jim, I'm impressed with his leanness, given what you say,
Sindi.

I am not all that concerned about my weight, it was just a thought.  I will
try to find some B12 somewhere that does not taste like nutritional yeast,
and try it as an experiment.  SOme day we will get the house built to a point
where I don't mind taking some time to eat during daylight hours.  I don't
really want to be eating calorie-laden food rather than nutritious food.
That reminds me, I should go finish cooking breakfast now.

If you're not getting enough calories to maintain your weight, "calorie-laden"
food *is* nutritious food - as a supplement to a diet supplying the rest of
what you need, and in reasonable moderation.  (This is a general comment, not
aimed at your situation but to your specific words, Sindi.)

I would rather eat the same number of extra calories as nutritious food,
rather than refined food consisting primarily of sugar or white flour, which
would increase rather than decrease my vitamin needs.  Today we had breakfast
before noon.  Cold potatoes are the answer.

Sindi, you mentioned earlier that you ran across some multivitamins that don't
contain any iron.  I've noticed a few brands like that starting to pop up
lately too.  I think it's weird, since so much of the female population runs
so close to being anemic.  I can think of a couple of possible reasons why
they would manufacture multivitamins without any iron.

1) I've heard that when small children overdoes on vitamins, it's iron
toxicity that can harm them.  So leaving out iron may make the vitamins safer
for small children to overdose on, and thus prevent lawsuits.
2) Iron causes constipation and other digestive problems in some people.
3) Recently there's been some question about a link between iron and, oh,
I forget if it was heart disease or cancer, but it was one of those.
4) There's been some recent news about how a large percentage of the
population actually has a condition that is caused by *too much* iron in their
bloodstream.  Oddly enough, the treatment for this disease is bloodletting
(or donating blood, I guess).


I don't know if either of these would work for you, Sindi, but I've got a
recipe for tofu coated in nutritional yeast that is positively yummy, and also
sometimes I sprinkle nutritional yeast into white sauces.  I think neither
tofu nor white sauce are on your list of acceptable foods, though.

We don't object to tofu but don't have the time to make it (and it is a
refined food so we would also like to be eating the fiber removed from it).
The odd thing about the iron-less vitamins were that they were coop vitamins,
derived from vegetarian sources, and vegetarians are unlikely to be among
those people getting overdoses of iron from meat.

It could be that they couldn't find an acceptable source of plant iron that
could be put into a pill without breaking down...

Recent studies have also suggested that getting more iron than needed may
be bad for your health.  People's needs vary a lot, so they may figure that
a "one dose fits all" multivitamin is not a good way to get iron.

Vegetarians are very unlikely to be getting more iron than needed, because
the only way you can absorb more iron than you need is when it is in the form
of 'heme' iron, from blood.  There is no blood in vegetarian food.
I have been adding rusty nail water to my oatmeal and rice cooking water,
along with the eggshells in citrate water for calcium.

Bon Appetit!

No taste added from either of these minerals that I notice.  It just seems
rather silly to be buying minerals in little tiny pills when they are
naturally abundant.  You are supposed to have Vitamin C with  the iron to
improve absorption.  We froze a lot of tomato juice last fall, raw.

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