The UM Property Disposal department has racks and piles of computer
stuff for sale to the general public. They get it from departments
that have upgraded their hardware, so the gear is dated but usually
functional. Well, it *was* functional. While UM PD receives all these
computers and keyboards and monitors from people that know how they
function, everything gets separated, there appear to be no or few
cables, and no records accompany anything. The result is an instant
depreciation of perfectly good working computer systems to junk, upon
receipt by UM PD. No help is offered to assemble a workable system,
and there are no cables, so unless you bring your own cables you can't
test the XTs, and you have to bring your own software. While a computer
neophyte might love to be able to obtain an older computer system for
a relatively low price, he/she is essentially prevented from using
what's available at UM PD: you have to be a computer geek to take
advantage of it. 
  
One of the purposes of grex is to provide access to computing and
computer education to interested members of the public. Do you think
it would be a worthwhile project for members of grex to rescue
used computer systems from UM PD, restore them when needed, and resell
them? I think it would be worthwhile to rescue workable computer
components from the indifferent care of UM PD: the question is therefore
if members of grex would consider it worthwhile to spend some time
in such a project?

77 responses total.

How would you picture this working, Rane?  Would Grex buy systems
for resale?  Be available as consultants to someone needing
a used system but unfamiliar with how to navigate PD?  Would
we be doing this as a community service to support our 501(c)3 
application or would we be looking for a little profit margin?
If a system we assisted with didn't run for more than a few days
would Grex be exposed to any liability?

Actually, the idea sounds interesting.  I'd just hope we wouldn't
in any way further tax our technical gurus.  We are already pushing
them too hard and this is proving to be a bottleneck. 

Yes, I think this is a great idea, Rane, and I would be happy to spend
some time on this.  I've got test equipment (DMMs and a scope) that we
can use.  Give me a call--or I'll give you a call--and we can talk about
this some more.

In partial response to Mary's questions:
  
"Warranty": grex would not be exposed to any more responsibility than it
has when it sells things "as is" at the JCC Computer fairs. It could
choose to give a 30 day warranty, or some such, or not. The computers
should be sold as exactly what they are: used computers made operable by
volunteers from grex. 
  
"Profit": grex would have to have a state sales tax license, and collect
the 4% (6%?) tax (or include it in the price). However profit is
allowable. That is, profit that goes to serve the purposes of grex. This
is the same as church bake sales, Tappan Middle School magazine sales, etc.
It would be desirable for grex to have its 501(c)3 tax exemption, as that
might encourage the donation of old computers, but it is not necessary.
This activity would, however, support the 501(c)3 exemption application.
  
"Taxing our Gurus": well, we are taling about *obsolete* computers - our
gurus concern themselves with the "cutting edge of computer technology".
There are probably a number of grex members that fiddle with / repair /
restore, the "crumbling edge" technology (I have noticed a few on grex),
who would volunteer some time. We *would* need at least an obsolete guru
who knows the older systems well, and is willing to provide guidance
to the volunteers. (I'd volunteer some time, and have some knowledge of
XTs, but would prefer to work under the guidance of someone more experienced.)
  
"Equipment": gosh, I've never used a scope on  'puter - might even learn
something here. I think a number of grex members, both hams and not, have
electronic tools and instruments. A location - with tables or work
benches - would have to be found. One where stuff can be left lying around.
  
Dan, I would suggest that we let this gestate just a little longer, and
see what other interest comes forward - and I get over a terrible cold
that I have now. I would then suggest a "grexpedition" to UM Property
Disposal, which is open every weekday 12-4, to look over the prospects,
by a group that knows lots about hardware - even bring along some cables
and system disks, to check things out. Some afternoon during the week
after Thanksgiving would be my preference. 

Sounds good to me.

I have some crumbling-edge stuff that needs some work, which I need for *me*.
<sigh>

A lot of *really* *good* stuff comes through Properties, but there are quite
a few people who make a living by being in there 4 hours a day, each and
every day.  (Your tax dollars at work.)  For people who only go occasionally,
it's either luck (always possible) or stuff that looks marginal but is good.
I think there's a lot of that, but a lot of it probably *is* marginal, and
you have to buy it to find out.

I definitely have some interest in this, but in no way whatsoever meet the
"group that knows lots about hardware" qualification.

Maybe if we can show that we're doing some public service we can get a 
jump on the junk dealers.  Might it be possible to get Property Disposal
to let us look over the stuff before they put it out for the general
public?

We might, but it would then help if we were doing this primarily for
schools or non-profits, rather than for open resale. They would not 
recognize grex as a non-profit charitable, but would some better known
groups. There was a suggestion in a UM conference where I opened this
subject (where Karl Zinn suggested that maybe a computer club would
be interested - hence this item), that it would be possible to get
equipment directly from departments with UM PD's blessing. Something to
look into.

I just reread #0.  I thought you were proposing to resell them at 
cost to those who could not afford them, but now I'm not so sure.
I like the idea of giving the gift of computing to those that may
no be able to afford it otherwise.

I'm proposing that all those computers that UM PD is junking be rescued
for good causes. I'm sure that there will be several suggestions for
good causes. Whether the good cause is someone not being able to afford
more, or a worthwhile charitable non-profit with little money, would
depend on the circumstances. If good causes are lacking, then they could
be resold to help the grex good cause. 

I doubt that you're going to get UM Property Disposition to cooperate in
giving anyone special treatment on the basis of nonprofit status; in fact,
I'll go out on a limb and say "no way!".  Just my 2c^H/ worth.

Probably. However, I understand that they do agree to some direct department
to department, and in some cases, department to others, sales. I don't
know how this works yet. 

This item has been linked from Hardware to Co-op.

I think this idea has some potential and I'd be happy to help
out some where I was able.

The whole UM Property Disposition deal is inefficient. 

Picture this: If UM came to me and said, "Rogue, we will pay you 20% of
gross sales." Do you know how efficient PD would be? Do you know how much
more money UM would make, even after they pay me 20%?

Back on topic. I think rcurl has an idea but, honestly, I don't think it's
worthwhile unless Grex gets special treatment and better prices.

Actually, I have received a few calls from non-profits and poor people 
who can't afford anything more than an XT or 286. The market is there, but
Grex would have to get the equipment at close to nothing.

I'd be willing to help with it.  I may not be "guru," but I've taken apart
and put back together my  computers and the computers at school several
times and they've always come out working better aftwerward than before
(due to whatever part I've installed).  I don't know too much about the
intracies of circuit boards, but as long as things are working reasonably
well I could do assembly.

If you have the cables and software with you (and maybe a monitor), you
can find just working systems, and repair might just consist of a little
cleaning. Say, is there any operating system that could be installed
"legally", so the computers are working when sold/donated? One could
probably pick up licensed DOS3.3 at hamfests or some such.

If you get hard disks there some of them are going to have DOS (and who
knows what else) installed already.

  I also would be happy to add my knowledge and experience to this cause,
being that I have built this XT into a viable machine quite literally on a 
shoestring. 
  And the same goes for my Mac.

Add shoestrings to the requisite tools and accessories.

I know a place taht GREX could "give" the systems to that would really
benefit our tax app. status. :)  The Washtenaw Literacy Council could
definately use old systems to help their learners.  They're a non-profit,
and GREX would be helping the county, and getting people lower on the
information ladder up a rung or two.

Good idea - as of a couple of years ago (& probably still) their in-house
machine, for accounting, word-processing, & anything else, was an
Apple ][.  I suspect that just having an alternative would be useful.

Pattie--

Do you have the name of someone we can contact?

Their office is in the Ypsi District Library bldg, phone 482-0565.  Whoops,
the phone book also lists them at 1100 N. Main (the NEW Center, I think)
at 769-0099.  The director is (if I remember right) Donna De Butts.

Yes... Talk to either Donna or Laurie at the Wash. Lit. Council..they are
listed in the phone book under that name, and have an office in Ypsi and
A2.

Dave, I understand the systems they have for learners are Apple IIs, but
they have a mac (possibly more) for DTP, ect.

They are also in need of tutors, so if you're interested in helping
directly with illiteracy in the county, give 'em a call.

I don't know about this PB thing.  The computers I've seen there are
over price for the most part.  Every now and then I hear of someone
getting a good deal, but that is rare.  The people who work there also
don't deal and have little idea of what most of their junk is worth
i.e. They don't see it as junk.  I think Jemmie was right.  You need to
get them for next to nothing to make it worth while.  (You can buy any-
thing out of the PD dumpster for $1 ;-)
Try soliciting free, dead and broken computers from local Co.'s or
something...

That's another route - but the thing about the PD junk is that is
*isn't junk*. It is obsolete equipment that was up and running and
serving people, until they decided to upgrade. There are sure to be
broken ones there too, but that's why you run them there. I'm not sure
what you mean by "worthwhile". Is it worthwhile to recycle useable
goods? I don't really want to get seriously into the *repair* business:
this is proposed as a rescue operation.

Before Grex tries this, think about what kind of margin you're talking about.
If there's little profit, is it worth the time and effort? The reason I am
usually not too excited about fund raisers (ie: car washes, etc.) is 
because many people spend countless hours to come up with a small amount of
money. My high school teacher was very practical and told us, "Instead of
having fund-raisers where little money is raised for a tremendous amount
of work, go get a job." 

If PD can't give very preferential treatment to Grex, it's not worth doing.

Most of the stuff at PD gets bought up, or recycled eitgher way.  It just
seems to be too expensive.  If you can get a good deal from PD, fine.
Most of the "junk" computers I've come across do work.  Just those who had
them didn't know how to set them up right or were bored by their groggy
preformance.

Well, whether or not we get them from the U-M or not, I still think the 
idea of finding and rehabilitating old computers and getting them to 
people who could use them is a good idea.

There seem to be two different things being discussed here.  Most of the 
comments have been whether or not it would be profitable as a fund raiser
for Grex to do this, while the way I understood the original idea (which
danr just got back to) was to do this as a way to get computers for people
who otherwise would not have access to one.

If stuff is gathered on any significant scale, it's likely to involve both.
But which you're *trying* to do affects what you're willing to buy & how much
you're trying to pay for it.

We can get down to cases by meeting and talking about it. It was proposed
that interested people meet at PD some part of some afternoon next
week (week of 29 to 3). PD is open 12 to 4. I am tied up all Monday
afternoon, and Tuesday after 3, but can get away parts of the other
days. Can anyone else? I should ask, are there some "critical" people
(who know more than I do about these age-challenged 'puters) that it
is essential to have along? Volunteer, if you'd like!

   I could make it mid-week to late week.

Shall we try Wednesday at 3?  It will be a good way to kick off
the holiday season.

Wish I could make it.

It has been moved and seconded to meet at UM Prop Disp at 3 pm on
Wednesday, 1 December. Hearing no further discussion, shall we move
to a vote? All in favor please say Aye, those opposed Nay, and those
abstaining - - Nothing. 

   Aye.

  Aye.

  Aye (but I'm not sure if I can make it).

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