I'm looking into purchasing a desktop publishing program.  Currenly
I'm trying to decide between Aldus PageMaker and Ventura (with or
without Windows, probably Without).  I'm not sure as to what advantages
one has over the other; I've only used PageMaker a couple of times, and
that was on a Macintosh.  I've never tried Ventura, though I've heard
it is a very powerful program.
  
I'm concerned about features, ease of use, versatility, compatibility
with other programs, and the weaknesses of each.  If anyone can tell
me about either or both of these, I'd be very grateful.

51 responses total.

I'm not sure that you'd want to get a non-Windows version, if only
because that's the way the MS-DOS world is going.   Buying another
product could limit your options in the future.

I might be able to purchase a Windows upgrade later, I suppose.  I just
don't like the idea of a program that I can't run on a machine without
Windows (i.e. can't use it on Mom's laser printer), and that has to run
within Windows and eat up memory.

        Pagemaker requires Windows.  As the latest version of Ventura is also
written for Windows, I don't know if they intend to produce any more
non-Windows versions.
        I've used Pagemaker, never even seen Ventura, so I can't do a
comparison.

It seems like they have Ventura both with and without Windows (probably
for people with OS/2 or something), but who knows...
  
Can you tell me about Pagemaker?  I've only used the Mac version.

  As long as it can output a Postscript (or HPGL) file, you should still]
be able to print on your mom's laser printer..

(Mom doesn't have Postscript, though.)

 then she probably has HPGL..

Sometimes you can find a program that redirects the output of programs
by stealing the device driver vector. Using one of these, you could get
the output on disk instead on printer, if the program doesn't provide with an
option of output to disk.

However, if your program puts all the data out in graphics format, you may
not be able to copy the file to one floppy disk. I think the backup program
would help you out in this using more than one disk. You probably want to
put all the commands into a '.bat' file to automate somewhat.

Windows also supports printing to a "FILE:" pseudo-device, which sends
the output to a disk file.

Note that a Windows version of a DTP program has several advantages,
including the ability to handle large documents and graphics more
easily, since the memory limitations imposed by DOS no longer apply.

I suppose I could always PKzip a big file, then pop it open  later.  The
problem is that I'm not sure how much getting a Windows version would do
anything except make it easier to use commands (pull-down menus and all).

I can see several advantages.  It's easier to exchange information
between Windows programs, for one thing.  I also suspect that it's
easier to handle printers and other output devices with Windows.

You should also be able to have several Windows programs running
simultaneously.  (Note: I haven't done this, but it sounds like
it's possible from the articles I've read.)  How is this useful?
Well, say you import a graphic into a document,but don't like the
way it looks.  If you had your draw program running in another window,
you could simply change windows, play with the graphic, pop back to
the DTP window, and import the modified graphic. 

Without Windows, you have to exit the DTP program, start the draw program,
do the mod, quit the draw program, and get back into the DTP program.
I just went through this procedure with the last ARROW newsletter, and
it was a hassle.

As I said, Windows programs also do not suffer from the 640K memory
limitation of DOS.  When you're dealing with big files -- big bitmap
graphics, in particular -- it can be difficult to fit everything into
memory.

To be fair, though, there are programs that run under DOS that use
other memory managers and make use of memory greater than 640K.

EMS and XMS are both kludges.  So is DOS.  Windows, because it has
to run under DOS, is still a kludge, but at least Windows programs
don't have to do all the funky things a straight DOS program has to
do in order to access lots of memory, or do multitasking.

I always laugh when DOS people complain about their unstable systems that
crash once or twice a day, and act as if it's something inherent
in the PC architecture.  My 386 Unix box stays up for weeks
at a time; if I didn't have to reboot it occasionally to run a Windows
program or play the new Sierra game, it would most likely stay up
for much longer.  Once Windows breaks free of DOS and becomes an
OS of its own (looking at Windows from the outside, they pretty
much just have to write utilities and a filesystem; they already
have a good multitasking kernel), it will be much more stable, too.

Surely, Windows has its own problems -- you still get UAE's from
time to time, but those are more the fault of the application
writers than of Windows.  But Windows is much more stable than DOS
can ever hope to be.

[I suppose I should disclaim some of my opinions here.  First of all,
when you look at Windows stability, it's not fair to count time when
Windows is running a DOS program in a window.  DOS-under-Windows is
a hack that I'm surprised works at all.  Second of all, part of the
problem with the existing instability in Windows apps is the fact
that PC app writers still haven't weaned themselves away from the
"I own the machine" mentality that pervades DOS programming.  When
you're writing a DOS program, you can feel free to stomp on interrupt
vectors, write directly to screen memory, and do countless other
ugly things that no self-respecting Unix programmer would think of
doing.  They work only because the DOS program *is* frequently the
only thing running on the machine, so it doesn't matter.  But as
soon as you get a multitasker running, this all changes -- there's
no guarantee that your program is the only one in memory, or even
the only one on the screen.  Think of things this way, to put them
in the proper perspective: A Windows UAE is the equivalent of a
Unix core dump is the equivalent of a DOS system crash.]

Not having been converted to the superiority of UNIX for home use,
I've still got DOS.  My problem with Ventura or Pagemaker Windows
is that I don't know if I want to be tied down to Windows; without
Windows the program won't run, whereas in a DOS-based application, you
can run it with or without Windows. 

Can you still get complicated user interface software such as DTP software
for MSDOS, and will you be able to in a couple years? To me, it looks like
that all new software and improvements are going to run under some windowing
system. Even unix would run under some windowing system, and there are
already programs out there (PD) that lets you talk to a unix system thru
a window client (uw - unix windows).

(Sorry.  No, UNIX isn't superior to DOS for home use; at least not in
its present form.  My point is that the programming paradigms used
under UNIX and Windows are superior to those used under DOS, in that
they allow multiple applications to coexist much more easily than the
DOS paradigms do.)

I guess I still don't understand why being "tied down" to Windows
is such a problem.  After all, if you buy a piece of software that
needs a hard drive to run, that means you won't be able to run it
on machines without a hard drive and thus will be "tied down" to
machines with hard drives.  If you buy a piece of PC software, you're
"tied down" to the MS-DOS world and can't run it on, say, a Mac.
So what?  Windows is so cheap these days ($99 retail, I think, and
a lot of computers come with Windows and a mouse for free now) that
most machines will have a copy installed, or at least have a copy
available, that it shouldn't be a problem.

Like it or not, I think Windows is going to be the future of PC-based
computing in the low- and middle-end.  Windows is still somewhat of
a chore to use on anything below a 386SX/16, but hopefully that will
become the least-common-denominator machine within a couple years,
and at that point a lot of application vendors may drop support for
the non-Windows version(s) of their software -- if they have one.
Even now, most of the major apps (word-processors, spreadsheets,
etc.) are available in a Windows version.

I already have Windows; my only problem is that I then end up with a
program entirely dependent on Windows.  I'm not sure I like the idea
of a program that can't stand alone.

Well, are you really going to be carrying your software around and using it
elsewhere? These are usually pretty big progs, if I remember correctly.
If it's only on your machine, being dependent on Windows isn't too much 
worse than being dependent on DOS...I mean, if you have it, don't worry 
about it.
All entirely my own opinion.

Go with the flow, Laurel.  :)

The MomMachine problem may not be much of a problem; I can probably
strongarm her into installing Windows if it means John gets to print
his desktop publishing stuff over there.  I just worry about the
Windows-compatibility problems, as well as the fact that I currently
have only 2 RAM.  I do NOT want the thing to jam up because my memory
is limited.

Well, if you are going to spend $400+ on a fancy DTP program, it 
doesn't make sense not to spend another $100 for a couple more megs
of RAM.

Except that I don't currently HAVE another $100.  

  Is there any such thing as a decent PD DTP program?  Probably not..

re #23: It still doesn't make sense.  2M might not be enough to take
advantage of a high-end DTP program, anyway.

If you *really* don't have the money, go for a program like Microsoft
Publisher.  It's only $150 at Egghead, and less through mail-order.

re #24: I haven't come in contact with one.

PD desktop publishing?  (?)

PD = public domain, i.e. free

I just got done with a site that was using windows and some of the latest
versions  of windows.  It's come a long ways - 

If there is still any interest in this topic, respond.

I don't know if any of you folks are still looking for a DTP program or
not, but there is now a shareware DTP package that's actually pretty good.
It's called EnVision and is actually what-you-see-is-what-you-get.
It uses scalable fonts (which is really nice), and registration is only
$70.

Danny Boy says check it out.

  And where would one go to check it out?

It's probably available on HAL 9000, or you can come over here and
I'll copy it for you.

Since this showed up as a new item to me (recent responses), my
2%'s worth is to go with Pagemaker. For one thing, it's available
all over campus and both Pagemaker and the Mac are (and ahve been
for a couple of years now) to exchange from machine to machine
with out losing anything. As long as (on teh DOS machine) remember
to copy the graphics inserts onto the disk you'd take th
the U's Macs. Else it' jaggity city on the grapics.
  
So you could do anything onthe DOS machine taht you wnated, and
inthe worst case, forget about printing - take it to the U
 OR to Kinko's for printing and polishing that last leading change.
  
There is a better DTP (can'T remember the name right this second)
but it's much more industry oriented with typographical lingo
used throughout. 
  
PageMaker is a very close second though, and getting better (closer)
to the RealBigTime typographical programs.
  
Oh, and there is a "student" version of PageMaker whose only
limitation from the BigGuy is a 12 page limit, instead of
an infinite page limit.
  
If you really needed to exceed 12 pages with the student version,
you just start a second document! Ta-Ta!

How do people like Ventura?

re #32:  Are you thinking of FrameMaker.  I've got some literature on
FrameMaker, and I think if I had to choose one now, that's what I'd go
with.

no it's not Framemaker, and my typesetting friend is in K-zoo and
I haven'T been out to visit for much too long now. I' recognize the
name if it were in front of me, however.
  
I think that Ventura is the company which might sell the DTP program
taht I'm thinking about. What is the name of the program?

Ventura's program is called "The Ventura Publisher" I believe. I've heard of
it as a DTP program on PCs for many years. I thought a Mac version was in the
works, but I don't know. I've never used it. I've been led to believe it was
good for really long things, like books.

  Interleaf?

don't think so.

Ventura definitely sells a DTP program, and last I knew it was called
"The Ventura Publisher" as Steve notes above.  I suggested Interleaf
because it's one of the most feature-bloated application programs I know
of (written in lisp, from what I've heard..)

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss