Concerning the motd note, ...have moved, if you notice anything different
let us know, I didn't see anywhere to let anybody know if changes, good
or bad, have been noticed.  Here is a place to say if there have been 
any changes. 

42 responses total.

This week has been terrible for me.  I have tried to read through the new
entries several times at a couple different machines at different times
of the day and I get hung up before I get done.  Everything just quits.
It has hapened while I have writeing some messages too.  I am getting
on through mlink or the msu gopher.  This is very frustrating.  anyone 
else having any problems like this?  (I can't believe I got done with 
this :-(

This item has been linked from coop #92

Whenever I try to call grex, the phone just goes on ringing; I never get
a busy signal, even when my housemate robh assures me all the modems are
in use.

   Peter, last night Marcus and I got to the Dungeon at about
midnight, and fix{ed the resistor for the tty06 line such  that
761-3000 rang busy for me when I saw that tty00 - 05 were in use.  So
I think that that problem is solved.  If people are getting open rining
still, then we have a bad modem or one that needs resetting.

Andy, will you keep track of when you got frozen in the future?
That will let us check your problems against those of fryps, and we
will see if they match, or something new is happening to you, or if
the problem is possibly related to something non-Grex on the net.

Thanks Steve, I'll note when I have problems and e-mail it to you?

Posting this must have frightened the gremlins.  I've been on over an hour
catching up and nothing has happened ;)

   No, post them here.  That way everybody can see 'em.

Speaking of MOTDs -  I'm curious as to how many people even 
read Grex's MOTD anymore, what with all the trivial stuff that
shows up in it, like announcing library book sales.  Stuff
that could be quite appropriately put into the announcements 
item are put in the MOTD for I'm not sure what reason.

Someday you guys are going to need everyone's attention
and you're going to find few are reading the dang thing 
for good reason.

I still scan the motd...grex is usually slow enough logging me in
that I have nothing better on my screen to read...I also read floor
numbers on elevators, even though they're usually the same.  :)

I have a number of things which show on login and scroll off the
screen while I usually futz with something, like mail or a to-do
list.  Then I tail back and read what I'm interested in but seldom
does this include the MOTD.  

Maybe what would be fairer, if folks agree it's not too cluttered,
would be to perm it so that anyone could leave whatever they consider
important in the MOTD.  One person's Blood Bank drive is another person's
Library Sale, is another person's gig at the Blind Pig, and they
are all worthy in the eye of the Lord. ;-)

This response has been erased.

I didn't really realize it until now, but looking back, I have a feeling
that popcorn may be right.  People are becoming more (if you;ll pardon the
phrase) tight a***d on this system then I remember.  I'm not
critizing anyone who has a complaint about something that really bugs them.
Again, I'm really trying not to steop onany toes here, it
wasn't obvious until popcorn stated the example.  But to be perfectly 
honest , the comment about the book fair being "inappropriate" was rather
anal.  Is it really such a big deal?  One of the things I love most about
Grex is the freedom to speak and do pretty much as I please without the
staff or anyone else coming down on me.  Ithink this is something that
should be watched very closely.  Grex being a free system, for
the most part, for the majority of it's existence, we may have been
lulled into a sense of security in the respect.  We might find it creeping up
on us faster than we think if we're not careful.  

   Mary's point about the MOTD bing cluttered should be thought
about.  I *like* things like messages about the library sale in the MOTD,
becuase I have swiss cheese for brains at times, and I'll pay
attention to that when I've forgotten about email, etc.
   But I do understand about the clutter factor in it.  If onl;y
we had less things broken, such that it needed less explaining... ;-)

With a lot of users on the system, and the motd one window high, it is
inevitable that there will be conflicting desires for space and opinions
on how the space is used. The problem is to resolve this, not just argue
about it. I would suggest that some new concepts should be considered
for "the space first seen by the user logging in". This is, after all,
the "marquee" for Grex. I'm just going to toss out a bunch of alternatives,
and maybe some discussion can get started. If anyone wants to discuss it,
then we can start an item in coop on Whither the MOTD?

1. Continue the way it is, and snipe at each other.
2. Let anyone enter *one line* pointing to particular cfs for what they
   want to announce.
3. Make the motd something like a menu page, where the user can choose
   to read categories (and return to the motd), or skip out.
4. Appoint a motd czar to adjucate the allocation of motd space.
5. Eliminate the motd.

I like #3 very much.  A very novel idea for the MOTD.

I didn't say the libarary message was inappropriate and I'm
certainly not picking on Valerie.  I didn't even know who 
had entered the message.  I was suggesting that if we'd 
really like to keep the MOTD area *special* then maybe it
would be a good thing to consider whether items entered there are,
indeed, special or would be a more appropriate fit in another
space, like the announcements item.  But if folks don't want
to reserve it for more urgent or important notices, fine by me.
 

And there already are rules involving the MOTD, Valerie, meaning only
those who have been given certain posting privileges can indeed post
there.  So, knowing this, I would think folks would indeed *want* to be
careful not to enter comments there that are maybe their personal favorite
announcements when not everyone would have the same privilege. But it's
really not a big deal.  Nothing personal was intended. No one here has
hinted at any rules.  Rather just some friendly comments, you know,
"talking it out" type discussion, to see if everyone feels okay about how
the MOTD is being used.  

Maybe it would also be helpful to let folks know how they could
go about getting something posted in the MOTD?  Who should they
email?  What kinds of things would be okay to ask to have
included?

Well, Rane slipped in, but prior to his response no one had
hinted at any rules. ;-)

Does anyone object to the walk announcements in the MOTD being, sometimes,
5-6 lines? 

I really feel the need to respond to this discussion:

First of all, let me say that I have never had a problem with anything that
has been posted in the MOTD for as long as I've been on Grex--that 's over 
a year now I believe.  Secondly I want to thank Valerie for her contributions
to the MOTD.  They have been appropriate and informative IMO.  

I've been seeing a fair amount of grousing over the past few months about the 
MOTD.  I just don't understand what the big deal is.  You log in, it scrolls 
past.  I certainly can't read it that fast.  If you want to see what it says,
you scroll back or open your lookback buffer or what ever you do with your 
terminal program.  What is the big deal?  If you don't care what it says,
don't look back.  I'm really sick and tired of all the complaining about 
the MOTD wasting peoples time!  That just seems absurd to me.  It's not that 
big of a deal.  Even if it was 3 screens long it wouldn't waste time, because
it goes  goes by so fast anyway.  If we =really= feel that super important
stuff gets lost, maybe we should have a convention which says that the =super=
important stuff goes first, or maybe last, and the rest can be just fairly
important  stuff.

Specifically about the book sale, I again want to THANK Valerie for putting
that in the MOTD, because I would not have found out about it otherwise.  I 
rarely read agora anymore, because it just takes too damn much time, so I 
am not likely to see things posted in announcements.  When I saw the book
sale notice come scrolling across my screen I thought "cool, another of those
neat library book sales!"  not "damn why is grex always cluttering um my nice 
pristine login screen with this stuff?"  The book sale is an excellent 
example of something that SHOULD be in the MOTD becaus it is a limited-time
event that will be of interest to a resonable number of people here.
I don't think you'd want to post it three months in advance, but using 
the MOTD to give people a couple days notice of an important event 
like the book sale seems to me to be a really good thing!

In closing, let me say that I do NOT want to see guidelines drawn up for 
useage of the MOTD.  The past couple of posters are right: we have enough
rules already here.  We need a bit more anarchy or rather we need to 
at least preserve some of it.  The MOTD, as long as it does contain the 
super important info, is not so critical that it needs to be micro-managed.
It also does not need to be open to everyone.  Not everything needs to be 
exactly equal in the world.  People can currently post announcements in
the announcement item, and many people will see them.  If someone has 
something that they think would make a good MOTD then they can send it 
to Valerie or other staff, who, in many cases I'd think, would post it.
No big deal.  I know, I know: "what if the thousands of grex users out there
decide to all send in submissions?"  Hey, let's address that problem if it ever
occurs.  It's not like it's going to crash the system!


Sorry about the length!  I'm done frothing now.

As a point of interest, here's the list from /etc/group of the people who can
post to the motd:

motd:*:45:mdw,meg,mju,morel,mta,popcorn,remmers,steve,gregc,srw,carl,carson,\
scg,aruba,rcurl

Cool.  So we'll think of it as a second announcements item, maybe
one that reaches folks who don't do Agora because of its bulk.
And anyone who has an announcement they'd like posted there can 
send the text to Valerie with a good chance it'll be entered.
And if something really important needs to catch everyone's attention
we'll find a way to do that if and when the problem comes up.

I have no problem with that.  And I'm *not* being sarcastic.
My question was answered.

Rane's suggestion #3, while a good idea, would be difficult to implement.
The current mechanism for motd, is simply a list of filenames that the
login program dumps to stdout when you log in. To implement a pager or
a menu mechanism, we would need to modify the login program. That's
a software change, and it's dubious when(or if)) that work could be done.

The current MOTD system seems reasonable; perhaps a line could be added to the
end to the effect:  "Problems or submissions with MOTD to popcorn" or other
appropriate person.

This conversation sure has digressed.  So I'll add to it :-)  I wish I lived
inthe A2 area to take advantage of the sale.  We don't have a decent bookstore
within 90 miles.  

I would like the motd to have a very short topic in caps followed by a
note.  That way I can recognize the difference of additions when it flashes 
by.

In making my list of suggestions, my favorite was #3 too, but I threw in
the others so everyone would have things with which to disagree. I think
it would be easily implemented if everyone used a shell that supported
menu or lynx - but I know they don't. The simplest general implementation
would be to bring up, after the list, a prompt that expects a numerical
input, and sends the user to that item. However, couldn't we try a
lynx/menu "motd" menu for all those that do use the right shells, and the
standard motd for everyone else? I mean, as an experiment? 

I'd support keeping it fairly short, and not making people do any extra
work to see the text.  If we wanted somewhere for people to post less
important information that people could see with a menu program, that
could be something else that people could run if they wanted to.

   The other thing we have to remember about the motd is that an
ever increasing number of people from out of the Ann Arbor area
are reading it.  What used to be a primarily Ann Arbor-centric
conferencing system is now something more regional/international
than I would have expected.  So we get to think of the things
in the motd in a way we never had to, before.

Do we really have to think like this?  I would hope that we don't
lose our Ann Arbor-centricity.  It's something that gives us our
character.  I welcome our world-wide users, but I don't want us to
lose our localness either.

   I don't want to lose it either--but the motd is the "front door"
that people walk through 2000 time a day now.  And most of those
2000 aren't from this area.   Since the motd is the only common
thing that all Grex users see, and since 70% aren't from the ann arbor
area any more, all I'm saying is that we should think a little more
about what goes at the top of that front door.
   I don't think Grex need lose its local flavor just because the
motd is changed.

I don't mind being part of a system which has a strong local community
with a few local notes now and again.  I just might become part of A2
one of these days.  It is comforting to know there are real things 
happening with real people in real places (food, walks, sales, computer
rehab, etc. :)

One way to deal with non-local users seeing local motd info would be
to automatically skip it if they have a "non-local" flag set in some
way...or if they telnet from somewhere not known to be local.  But those
are both too much work...I say let 'em read the local motd's, unless
they raise a fuss about it!  I've logged into far-away systems that
had local motd-ish news, and was vaguely interested or neutral to it.

        hey, I'm not exactly states away from A2, but from my
perspective, it gives me the chance to know what's up where my favorite
place/non-place is! Keep the local stuff!

   Glad to hear some interest in keeping it around.  As long as
we don't overdo the local stuff, I think we'll be OK.  At the
SF convention I was at this last weekend, there was a comptuer
room with an Internet connection.  Some peple were looking over
my shoulder as I was getting into Grex to show it off a little.
Someone there mentioned that they thought it was neat that a
non-techie thing like a walk and booksale could make in into
the motd.

I have always liked the +short+ oneliners in motd (except for when
there is something BIG to announce.
  
I prefer #2, actaully, so that, for one thing, AACS meetings can
get a bit of promo (just a single line) or for a theater prsentation
which involves a Grexian (just one line).
  
I, myself, have been castigated by both steve and popcorn for
NOT announceing sooner (motd would have been a superior location)
about the AACS meetings, even though they are on the mailing 
list too.
  
Oh, btw  AACS meeting is tonight, WEd, 1 Feb, at 1200 EECS and
the "megavegamatic of the INternet" is the topic (World Wide Web).
 
see you there (this is the first of 3 successive Internet
presentations).

You left out the time of the AACS meeting...anyone know?

This response has been erased.

(The meeting was at 7:30.  It was good!)
I must say I agree wholeheartedly with #28.  The local Ann Arbor aspects of
Grex are important to me, and they add a lot to Grex's character.  I
imagine that to someone who isn't in Ann Arbor, a walk announcement may
not be "useful information", but I hope it can still impart a feeling of
hominess and community.  That's what *I* log into Grex for, ultimately.

Regarding the local character of the motd, (and of grex in general) it
seems to me that there are plenty of larger (and easily/cheaply accessed)
bbs's that serve a broad non-local public out there.  I even have accounts
on a couple of them.  I keep my account on grex, however, partly because
of its local flavor.  Grex need not be competition with these other sys-
tems.  There's room for all sorts of bbs's out there and the fact that
lots of non-local people use grex despite (or in virtue of?) its A2-
centrism looks like evidence that grex (as it is) is filling a desirable
(oops) I think it would be a shame to jeopordize grex's appeal by making
it more like so many other systems out there.  We can *be* cosmopolitan
(in that people from all over read/subscribe to grex) without overtly
*seeming* cosmopolitan.  Well, that's my two cents - I hope it didn't
seem too pedantic; I didn't mean it be.

Seemed perfect to me!

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss