This item is for discussing transgender issues.  Not just for people who feel
they were born into the wrong sex body, but for all of us.  Are there ways
in which you feel you fit better into the opposite mold?  Do you have
interests or talents that are not expected of your sex (taxi driving for
women, artistic talent for men, or whatever)?  Do you have a personality that
you could better express if you were the opposite sex?  Do you ever wish
people would treat you as the opposite sex gets treated?  If you had a choice
of which sex body to be reborn into, would it be the same one you have now?
Do you sometimes feel that you have to act a certain way because it is
expected of you due to your chromosomes, but would rather not?  I am
particularly interested in whether bisexual people act much differently
depending on which sex they are with?  Would a bi woman act more 'manly' when
with a woman? 

54 responses total.

I have had but few experiences with a guy, and I don't think bi men 
really switch gender personality depending on the sex they are with.

We have an interesting society that is continually trying to change and 
reinvent itself.  It is easier than ever before to challenge the gender 
roles placed on us by the established rules of that society-- some roles 
that are very strong and firmly entrenched.  Yet some say we in the U.S. 
lead the world in feminist causes.  We're probably the only nation as 
well that started a men's movement that questioned modern roles of man.

It is probably the most difficult for those who are transgendered/
transsexual since they have made a change, or are in the process of 
making a change to their biological bodies to better fit their inner 
selves.  The transitional process is probably the hardest, since our 
society doesn't have a traditional role for them.

Transgendered people are also hit hard by violence, or "hate crimes."  
Most assailants are heterosexual men, if I remember right.

I think Sindi is raising some good issues: perhaps someday our society 
will come to the point where social roles will be decided individually 
rather than by consensus, and gender distinction will be de-emphasized.  
Or perhaps the opposite will happen..

I expect that most transgendered people are not undergoing or even considering
surgery.  They just feel like their body does not match the sex that they are.
Sort of like being forced to wear clothing that sends the wrong message.  You
have the choice of changing the message or not expressing the true you.  We
probably all feel this way to some extent, and I would not be surprised if
glb people are farther from the norms than others.

resp:3  Well, of course, I would bet it's because it is sooo expensive 
and the surgery is practiced mostly in Sweden.  I doubt that many have 
the resources to cover it; for insurance to foot the bill, they must 
have a psychiatrist explain that a sex change would be in the best 
interest of mental health for the person.  Even the hormones are 
outrageously expensive, and hormonal therapy has to be given first.

I only saw one transgendered person in my hometown.  I guessed the 
person was taking hormones, since the person gradually developed some 
curves and breasts (transgendered biological male).  I'd seen this 
person on the bus sometimes, and my homophobic assistant manager at the 
Sbarro's Italian Eatery I worked at pointed out that the person worked 
at the optical store nearby the mall food court we were located in.  
This is why I say I think transgendered people are suffering more stigma 
than the glb folk; it's harder to blend in.

        They've been doing transgender surgery in the 'States for years now
- around the time that people had to go to Sweden for it, they also had to
go to Mexico for abortions. :)

        I was surprised to learn one of my old acquaintances is now
transgendered (he's straight, or she's gay, depending on how you want to look
at it).

        Our society does have defined sex-roles, but that's largely an artifact
of our culture - other societies have differing sex-roles, and it's not
uncommon to see things, from an American perspective, reversed - in Iran men
are often phsyically affectionate, are expected to be openly emotional, and
write poetry, while women are encouraged to not show emotion and to be more
practical, for instance. 

        So I wonder, among the TGers, if they're in rebellion to the defined
sex roles - as I am in a number of ways - in the sense that they feel closer
to the "other" sex role, or an uncomfortableness with their own bodies, which
is a different sort of ailment.

It *does* make you wonder.  The label transgender would certainly 
include the first-- a rebellion towards gender roles, while transsexual 
would more definitely suggest the latter.

        Hrm, and each is as far as the other as a hawk from the moon ...

I was hoping that people would use this item to help reassure omni that he
is not a freak, but rather part of a continuum.  Nobody is completely typical
of either sex, except possibly briefly, as the rules keep changing when
different behaviors go in and out of fashion.  On some sort of silly written
test about sex-appropriate behavior and interests, jdeigert and I both came
out in the middle.  He likes babies and cooking, I find carpentry and
electronics interesting (but am not all that good at them).  Omni likes
cooking and sewing and airplanes and car repair, and is a sweet nonagressive
person who expresses himself very well, which in the still-pioneer-mentality
USA is associated more with women than men.  If omni had been born a woman,
I would not be surprised if he also felt out of place in some ways.  Is there
anyone in this conference who thinks they are 100% one sex in behavior and
attitudes and interests?  Who would prefer to wear only clothing typical of
one sex?  Have close friends only of one sex?

        One of the downsides to bisexuality and transvestism is that it's
difficult to get support for either anywhere, insofar as I understand.
        For what it's worth, the pioneers would've sneered at the amount of
sex-segregation we have.  They didn't have the luxury of defining gender
roles.  That's largely a product of the Industrial Revolution, along with
other fun things like the nuclear family and soot.

        Now my personal take on things is that gender roles are just plain
silly.  If I want a woman to pursue me, or write poetry, I'm comfortable with
that.  I'm equally at home cooking and cleaning or repairing my car and
computer.  *shrug*

   I saw a story on 20/20 about a woman who used to be a man that raced cars
for a living. He is currently trying to get back to where he was when he raced
as a man. He told of wearing girls clothes to bed, and in later years wearing
panties under his male clothes when he raced. This was really resonant,
because I did and am doing the same thing. I don't want to go any farther
right now.
   Would I be happier as a woman? It's hard to say, so I cannot answer that.
I really cannot tell anyone about this because no one expects something like
this come out of my mouth. I mean, no one in my family wants to listen, so
I don't expect them to be tolerant and accepting of this. 
   No one wants to be labeled a freak. We try to get through life with as
little pain as we can, but sometimes there is pain no matter what we do. I
don't want to be called a fag, or a drag-queen just because I happen to wear
panties and bras. My mother doesn't really understand what transgenderism is.
My sister thinks I shouldn't be wearing lingerie at all, and I don't care what
my brother in law thinks, but I suspect that he is as TG unfriendly as my
sister is. I've been thinking about telling my cousin, but I'm not sure how
understanding she'd really be, but it is worth a shot.

I heard the same story about the race car driver.  One thing that really
struck me was when he mentioned praying he wouldn't get into a crash - less
because he didn't want to be injured, and more because if he needed medical
attention they'd notice he was wearing panties.  Probably the best description
I've heard of how frightened people are at the thought of being 'discovered'.

I guess I went through a phase similar to what you're going through a while
ago.  (Oops - in _my_ case it was a phase.  I'm not passing judgement on what
it's like in your case.  You know what I mean...).  In fact, I think there's
still and item in this conference that I entered as a pseudo back when 'being
found out', even by a group I knew would be sympathetic, was terrifying; and
that helped a little, and talking with other people online helped a little,
but what finally helped the most was realizing that there was someone I knew
in 'real life' who I could talk to about it, and who knew me well enough in
real life to be able to give good advice.  
I would never in a million years have discussed this with my family either,
and my family is pretty open-minded.  Do you have any good friends who you
can trust to be sympathetic about this one?

  None that I can think of. I mean, I'm not a really social person, and in
the circles that I travel in, most people are very, very conservative. I'm
afraid that I am alone in this for now, except for the people here in this
conference.

        He could've thought of a plausible excuse - something appropriately
macho - like, if he were not married, that as a "good luck charm" he wore the
underwear of his last "conquest".

From what I have read, a sizable percentage of married hetero men are also
interested in wearing women's underwear.  One explanation is that it lets them
express the feminine aspects of their personality.  Often the wives do not
mind and actually enjoy helping them shop for lingerie.

I recall my brother once trying on a wig (long blond, of course).  We have
a photo of him.  Also tried on a dress.  I ran across my mother's diary in
which she noted that she and my father were shocked and thought he should be
sent to a psychiatrist.  (This was also the suggested cure for bedwetting).
My brother never has been romantically interested in men, he just thought it
was interesting to try on women's clothing.  Seems to be a great deal of
social pressure preventing men from doing so.  I was also punished when i
complained about having to wear a dress on a non-school day by being forced
to wear it all weekend.  Somehow my parents seem to have thought that if I
was forced to dress a certain way I would start liking it.  Odd.

I am presently wearing a dress, it is the coolest item of clothing that I own.
(Bathing suits are too sticky).
JIm is stuck wearing shorts and a shirt, which are warmer.  

Do any women secretly wear articles of men's clothing?  

Have any men reading this ever dressed as a woman (for Halloween, for
instance) and if so, did you feel different?

Outside of rare sexists and "does it fit?" issues, i don't think there's 
any real resistance to women wearing traditionally male clothing.  I've 
known a fair number who were happy that their husband/brother/son/etc.
wore clothes that fit them, so they could borrow 'em to wear.  The guys
involved often didn't like it, but that it was a *woman* who was borrowing
& wearing wasn't their issue....  

        Women doen't seem to have fetishism nearly as often as men;  I'm not
sure of any statistically valid surveys on the matter, and it's just a gut
feeling, but it really doesn't seem to be as common among women.  The
short-circuit just doesn't happen.

There are a few articles of clothing that still look fetish-y on women, such
as tuxedos and otherformal wear.

I was dressed in full drag (including make-up) last Halloween. I felt like
me. No different.

        I was thinking more along the lines of PVC and spandex ...

how about a PVC tuxedo?
/

PVC?  You mean like pipe?

        
        The same family of polymer, yeah.

There's a flexible form of PVC which is not unlike rubber or vinyl in texture
and appearance.

shower curtains

swimming pools, movie stars

concerning resp:9  I think I'm with John in the fact that the Industrial 
Revolution really polarized the sexes of peoples of all classes.  I 
think that before that time, the nobility could still afford to stratify 
along gender lines, but the middle and lower classes usually did not.

I think we have also concluded that certain behaviors does not 
necessarily slap a definite label on a person.  I seem to remember it 
mentioned several times that straight men have indulged in tranvestism.  
As far as gender roles, I think strangely the opposite is beginning to 
happen-- the rich are beginning to mingle them while the poor are 
stratifying them.  Redneck/"white trash," laborer Hispanics, and ghetto 
blacks seem to come to mind.

I think we mentioned that women still have a double standard when it 
comes to clothing-- the unaltered tuxedo is definitely an exception.  
However, it is appropriate for women to wear some articles of men's 
formal clothing in certain situations.  Ties and casual or dress shirts 
have been appropriate for some restaurant servers and flight attendants 
who are women.

        Another wonderful thing the Industrial Revolution brought us (outside
of pollution and factories) is the realisation of the concept of the nuclear
family, as oppsoed to the extended family.  Utah Phillips would probably argue
that this was to stop the spread of oral history from the family's elders,
and to compromise the integrity of the family, and there's some evidence he'd
be right.

        I don't think that the Industrial Revolution invented the concept of
gender roles;  it's pretty obvious that they existed long before that, and
in more concrete forms at times.  It's just that our gender roles in modern
America seem to, in large part, be traceable to that period.

<quietly applauds the Utah Phillips reference>

I've heard the thing about the Industrial Revolution creating our current
gender roles, and I'm not sure I find it too convincing.  At least some of
our gender roles (housework vs. "real work", nurturer vs. provider, and so
on) seem to be pretty much universal.  If anything, one of the long-term
effects of the Industrial revolution is that, for maybe the first time in
history, anatomy does not necessarily determine what someone can or can't do.

What would be the purpose of stopping the spread of oral history?

I was going to make the same comment as Ori. Man hunt. Woman garden. That's
been the case as far back as anyone can reconstruct. 

        There's probably even a biological basis for why the human female is
shorter and has a more flexible spine and the human male has higher muscle
mass, lower fat, and more load-bearing capacity - the basic hunter / gatherer
split.

        But there's a lot more than just how one earns a living to gender
roles.

So what are you pointing to in particular as starting with the Industrial
Revolution?  I don't know enough about the relevant history to be able to
think of anything...

        That's cool, I'm holpelessly generalizing a complicated subject
anyways. :) 

        The current family, and the roles of the individuals in the family (and
therefore gender roles as preparing for the adult role in the family) draws
heavily on the nuclear family of Industrial Revolution Europe;  wherein the
male works, the female often works, but in noticeably distinct fields.  

Still nothing that doesn' trace back to hunter/gatherer society.

        There is, though.  In many ways, Iranian culture reverses Western
stereotyped roles;  men are expected to be physically affectionate with one
another, openly emotional, and to write poetry and such, qualities ascribed
more to the stereotypical role of women in the West - women are expected to
be unemotional and pragmatic, qualities ascribed more to men in the West. 
It's nicely documented in Edward Halls _The Silent Language_.

        What was it that that first Jewel album said on the cover?  "What we
call human nature is actually human habit."  It's a good quote for the subject
of gender roles.

But in Iranian culture, the men still do the money making work and the women
still do the housekeeping... 
I thought we were talking about family structure and pragmatic gender roles.
You still haven't provided any counterevidence for the claim that those
haven't really appreciably changed since Hunter-Gatherer times.

        Then your confusion is understandable, since we've all been discussing
gender roles in general and as they apply to transgenderism.

oh. ok. =} In that case, I agree entirely. =}.

Part of what changed during the Industrial Revolution was who lived in 
the home... Formerly it wasn't uncommon for multiple generations of
the family to reside in one house. During the Industrial Revolution
it became more common for a couple and their children to live there--
and live away from the couple's parents... I also reember something
about lunch coming into play, but I don't remember exactly what though...
<frowns>  It'll come to me eventually...

Family businesses also used to be much more common, especially during 
the long agricultural eras.  The whole notion of Calvinism and other 
Protestant attitudes suggested individuals made the greatest successes, 
and not the family.  This, I'm sure, made it easier for there to be only 
one breadwinner.

Ooh...good point.  That makes sense.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss