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Grex Glb Item 37: gay bashers in the news again (long -- 163 lines) [linked]
Entered by void on Mon Oct 12 22:55:26 UTC 1998:

                        Gay Wyo. Student Dies From Beating
                        By E.N. Smith
                        Associated Press Writer
                        Monday, October 12,
                        1998; 3:37 p.m. EDT

                        FORT COLLINS, Colo. (AP) -- A gay
                        University of Wyoming student died today,
                        five days after he was found
                        pistol-whipped and lashed to a fence post
                        in an attack denounced nationwide as a
                        hate crime.
                        
                        Matthew Shepard, 21, died while on life
                        support, said the head of Poudre Valley
                        Hospital, Rulon Stacey. Shepard had been
                        in a coma since bicyclists found him
                        tethered to the post in near-freezing
                        temperatures outside Laramie, Wyo., on
                        Wednesday.
                        
                        "The family was grateful they did not
                        have to make a decision regarding whether
                        or not to continue life support for their
                        son," Stacey said. "He came into the
                        world premature and left the world
                        premature and they are most grateful for
                        the time they had to spend with
                        Matthew.
                        
                        Police have said robbery was the primary
                        motive for the attack. But gay rights
                        groups and others assailed the beating
                        and called on Wyoming legislators to
                        adopt laws to deter crimes against
                        homosexuals.
                        
                        "We are calling on all the people to
                        have a renewed discussion to find out
                        what we might do to strengthen our
                        laws," Gov. Jim Geringer said today. The
                        first-term Republican, up for re-election
                        next month, hasn't pushed hate crime
                        legislation in the past, but he said
                        today, "I'm open to any suggestion that
                        we might bring to our Legislature."
                        
                        In Washington, White House press
                        secretary Joe Lockhart said today that
                        President Clinton was horrified by the
                        attack and spoke with Shepard's family
                        Saturday. He renewed the president's call
                        for "some kind of a national standard,
                        law, on hate crimes."
                        
                        Before Shepard's death, Russell Arthur
                        Henderson, 21, and Aaron James McKinney,
                        22, had been charged with attempted
                        murder, kidnapping and aggravated
                        robbery. Their girlfriends -- Chasity
                        Vera Pasley, 20, and Kristen Leann Price,
                        18 -- were charged with being accessories
                        after the fact.
                        
                        Sgt. Rob DeBree of the Albany County
                        sheriff's office, a lead investigator in
                        the case, confirmed today the charges
                        would be upgraded to first-degree murder.
                        He gave no details.
                        
                        McKinney's girlfriend, Ms. Price, and his
                        father, Bill McKinney, told The Denver
                        Post that the two men never set out to
                        kill the 5-foot-2, 105-pound Shepard.
                        Instead, they said the two wanted to get
                        back at Shepard for making passes at
                        McKinney in front of his friends Tuesday
                        night in a campus bar.
                        
                        "I guess they (the people in the bar)
                        knew that Matt Shepard was gay and maybe
                        it got around that Aaron was gay or
                        something," Ms. Price said in a story
                        published Sunday. "Later on, Aaron did
                        say he told him he was gay just to rob
                        him, because he wanted to take his money
                        for embarrassing him."
                        
                        The elder McKinney said there was no
                        excuse for the crime but the story had
                        been blown out of proportion.
                        
                        "Had this been a heterosexual these two
                        boys decided to take out and rob, this
                        never would have made the national
                        news," he told the Post. "Now my son is
                        guilty before he's even had a trial."
                        
                        Friends of Henderson and McKinney said
                        they were surprised by the allegations.
                        
                        "They were quiet," said Heather
                        Dunmire, 20, of nearby Rock River. "I
                        wouldn't have expected them to do that. I
                        never would expect another human to do
                        that."
                        
                        Henderson and Ms. Pasley live in a rural,
                        windswept trailer park amid weeds, engine
                        parts, fishing tackle and barking dogs. A
                        neighbor, John Gillham, 21, said the
                        couple generally kept to themselves.
                        
                        About a thousand people attended a
                        candlelight vigil Sunday night near the
                        University of Wyoming campus to show
                        their support for Shepard, who was a
                        political science major.
                        
                        "We are saddened, heartsick," said the
                        university's president, Philip Dubois.
                        "All of us I would imagine are haunted
                        by the thought of a terribly battered
                        young man with his future erased.
                        
                        "It is almost as sad to see individuals
                        and groups around this country react to
                        this event by stereotyping an entire
                        community, if not an entire state."
                        
                        Shepard's parents said in a statement
                        released before his death that he would
                        "emphasize he does not want the horrible
                        actions of a few very disturbed
                        individuals to mar the fine reputations
                        of Laramie or the university."
                        
                        Shepard left Wyoming as a teen to finish
                        high school in Switzerland. A friend said
                        he had to overcome concerns about how his
                        sexual orientation would be accepted
                        before he returned to Wyoming -- which is
                        nicknamed the Equality State because it
                        was the first state to let women vote,
                        serve on juries and hold public office --
                        for college.
                        
                        "He had a lot of the same fears other
                        people have coming into a small
                        community," said Walt Boulden, a
                        graduate student. "When he left Wyoming
                        he had just started dealing with being
                        gay. So he was very concerned about the
                        attitudes when he first came back.
                        
                        "But he really felt at home and
                        comfortable here. He felt this was the
                        place to be right now."

                                    Copyright 1998 The Associated Press


[used without permission]

404 responses total.



#1 of 404 by void on Mon Oct 12 23:02:38 1998:

   there are several detailed accounts of what happened to mr. shepard
available.  basically, he was taken to the edge of town in a pickup
truck, bashed repeatedly in the head with the butt of a handgun, tied
to the fence post more or less cruciform, and left there.  he was found
about 18 hours later.

   reading all these accounts has made me so angry that i can't think
of anything logical to say.

   agora 54 <---> gay 37


#2 of 404 by other on Tue Oct 13 00:25:22 1998:

there is nothing logical to say to this...  so how about we crucify the perps
and see how they like it?


#3 of 404 by senna on Tue Oct 13 00:58:54 1998:

Hmm.  Interesting.  


#4 of 404 by i on Tue Oct 13 01:16:16 1998:

Gee.  Makes the Klan seem kind & civilized by comparison.


#5 of 404 by gypsi on Tue Oct 13 02:57:14 1998:

Oh, god forbid someone assume something that wasn't true about the
guy he made a pass at.  Nobody kills people that make a pass if
they're of the *opposite* sex.  Sheesh.  When are these
small-minded, insecure, cavemen going to become extinct?


#6 of 404 by steve on Tue Oct 13 03:25:17 1998:

   What disgusts me about events like this is how amazingly rabid
white straight Americans seem to get at even the thought of any
kind of interpersonal interplay with a "gay" person.

   This kind of reaction is not unusual, either.  At the Ann Arbor
Film Festival this year, there was a fantastic documentary on this
kind of reaction, through interviews with about 5 prisoners doing
time for killing gay folks.  Even in prison there wasn't any remorse
or regret at the thought of killing a gay person, after they'd made
some approach at them.


#7 of 404 by rcurl on Tue Oct 13 03:35:41 1998:

Gay men must be seen as an enormous threat to such males. Why? They
know they have a great deal to lose for murder - what can be so overwhelming
that they don't stop to think (of course, such murderers probably must often
not stop to think).


#8 of 404 by eieio on Tue Oct 13 03:36:25 1998:

After the incident on Jenny Jones, Jonathan Schmitz reportedly said "Now
everyone, even Grandma, is going to think I'm a homosexual."
 
Yeah? Well, now everyone, even grandma, thinks you're a murderer. To me, at
least, that sounds SO much worse.


#9 of 404 by scg on Tue Oct 13 03:40:16 1998:

This is certainly a horrible situation.  I'm horrified at people doing this
sort of thing to somebody just because he was gay.  I was also horrified by
the quote from one of the perpetrators' fathers, saying that this was being
blown out of proportion.  At the same time, though, I've been listening to
politicians, from the President on down, siezing on this as a reason to call
for strengthening "hate crime" legislation, which they say is needed to
prevent this sort of thing, and while part of me supports the concept behind
that, I'm really not sure how much useful that will do.  Would this situation
be any better if it had been a random act of violence?  If you're the victim
of such an attack, do you really care if it's because you're gay, or black,
or just in the wrong place at the wrong time?  Since the perps are already
being charged with first degree murder, which tends to have maximum sentences
of either life in prison or death, depending on the state, are additional laws
going to be a detterent when existing laws aren't?  Or even if these laws
won't do much to actually stop people from doing this sort of thing, does the
symbolism involved make hate crime laws worth it anyway?


#10 of 404 by senna on Tue Oct 13 06:47:11 1998:

The parrot is still dead.

Smells of politics to me.  


#11 of 404 by remmers on Tue Oct 13 12:58:40 1998:

A telling quote from the article: "Police have said robbery was the 
primary motive for the attack."

Since when does robbery entail the kind of violence that was done here? 
I think this tells us something about the attitude of the police.


#12 of 404 by rcurl on Tue Oct 13 14:24:35 1998:

Robbery often entails murder in order to silence witnesses. This wasn't
the case here, where the victim was left alive but in jeopardy. It was
an act of extreme cruelty. r

The advantage of hate-crime legislation is that the motive is sanctioned.
Motive is often in question in charging and sentencing.


#13 of 404 by aruba on Tue Oct 13 15:48:19 1998:

Like scg, I don't understand what "hate crime legislation" will do,
exactly.  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the motive is
sanctioned", Rane, since a law can't make it illegal to hate someone.  Is
there some legal concept of "admissibble motives", or something like that?


#14 of 404 by toking on Tue Oct 13 19:25:26 1998:

re #6: 

   What disgusts me about events like this is how amazingly rabid
white straight Americans seem to get at even the thought of any
kind of interpersonal interplay with a "gay" person.


I'm a straight white American, as a matter of fact, I'd guess that I'm
pretty much your average straight white American. I wouldn't do
something like this, and hey, I bet your average straight black American
wouldn't do this either...hmmm...I"d also be willing to bet that your
average straight purple dinosaur American wouldn't pull this kind of
shit either! What I want to know is why any statement like that had to
be made? One thing I don't get is why peoiple don't seem to realize that
superfiscal things like race have nothing to do woth something like
this! That some people are just down right evil, and that's why thing
like this happen.

Sorry,but "...how amazingly rabid white straight Americans seem to
get..." re4ally bugged me...I'll shut up now


#15 of 404 by johnnie on Wed Oct 14 00:55:55 1998:

I read an interesting study a while back where they interviewed a bunch 
of guys to get their reactions to gay persons, etc, then had the 
subjects watch homoerotic films while hooked up to devices that measured 
their, mmm, excitement.  There was a decided correlation between those 
who expressed extreme hatred towards homosexuals and those who were 
turned on by the films (that is, those who want to beat up gays for 
being gay are the ones who got off on the gay films).  So those such as 
the murderers in the incident at hand are betraying more about 
themselves then they realize...



#16 of 404 by polygon on Wed Oct 14 01:26:40 1998:

Re 15.  This has been known for many years.  Ask any mental health
professional.


#17 of 404 by scg on Wed Oct 14 01:42:37 1998:

Although, since these people are presumably already feeling quite threatened
by the situation, pointing that out to them probably won't help matters.


#18 of 404 by other on Wed Oct 14 01:56:59 1998:

        "We hate most in others what we fear most in ourselves."

                                                - i don't know...

This is one of those statements I have seen and felt to be more significantly
true the less one believes it to be...



#19 of 404 by brown on Wed Oct 14 02:37:49 1998:

is it just me... or d'ya just have ta love this perfect world we
have...


#20 of 404 by rcurl on Wed Oct 14 03:53:48 1998:

It is not illegal to hate someone, but what I said was that motive is
important in *charging and sentencing* - that is, after a crime has been
committed. There was a discussion of this, incidentally, on NPR today. 
The person they interviewed pointed this out, and gave examples of where
hate-crime legislation greatly reduced "hate crimes" in some
jurisdictions. What the legislation does is provide another basis for
judging the crime. For example, if someone assaults someone else because
(say) the person bumped into them, the assault could be attributed in
court to "sudden flash of anger", or a misunderstanding, or too much
coffee, it is likely that the assailant (if only minor damage was caused) 
would receive a moderately mild rebuke or sentence.. However if it can be
demonstrated by word or deed that the reason for the assault was the other
person's color, or religion, or sexual preference, then there is
established a purposeful motive, and the charge and punishment may be
higher. 



#21 of 404 by gypsi on Wed Oct 14 06:01:05 1998:

Well, I like sleeping with men, but watching a woman and man in a
porno doesn't turn me on in the slightest.  Therefore, I don't hold
much confidence in that study.


#22 of 404 by jep on Wed Oct 14 13:54:47 1998:

#15 seems to associate homosexual tendencies with violent behavior.

#20: "Hate crimes" is a hot button tag, nothing more.  To me, the 
seriousness of #0 is that a young man was killed.  The people who did it 
committed murder.  It makes no difference to me at all that they did it 
as a "hate crime".  If they did it to protest bad roads, as a school 
project, or to promote the fertilization needs of nearly extinct 
flowers, it's still murder.


#23 of 404 by brighn on Wed Oct 14 15:21:37 1998:

#21> The study is based on physiological responses, not (consciously)
psychological ones... that is, increased hormonal activity, respiration, etc.
We're generally poorly equipped to guage physiological arousal at these
levels... it's not an issue of what gets us wet or hard, necessarily, but
rather an issue of what gets our lower brains working.

In short, you may not be psychologically turned on by porno, but let's strap
you to a machine and see what it says (and it may well agree with you, but
it might not).

Also, it's also generally held in psychological circles that women are aroused
by text, men by pictures, so it's not entirely appropriate for a woman to
dismiss a study of male sexual reactions to stimuli based on her own
experiences.


#24 of 404 by rcurl on Wed Oct 14 15:22:57 1998:

Sure, it's still murder. It is also a hate crime. Protesting bad roads,
doing school projects, and fertilizing flowers do not perforce interfer
with the life, liberty or pursuit of happiness of others. Hate that is
acted upon does. Society should find ways to promote tolerance and
cooperation. It is certainly better than promoting hate. 

That said, I would agree that it would be better to reduce hate through
education and (what used to be called) rearing. It is usually too late
to modify attitudes once they are established. Putting some barriers
against acting on those anti-social attitudes is still worthwhile, in
my opinion. 


#25 of 404 by albaugh on Wed Oct 14 17:13:10 1998:

Re: #14:  There are some that would hold that Barney *is* evil.  But if they
killed Barney, as expoused in the usenet group, wouldn't they be guilty of
a hate crime, for singling out a purple dinosaur american?  I think that we
should also protect Barney from this kind of discrimintory hate!  And then
people with freckles, male pattern baldness, ...


#26 of 404 by jazz on Wed Oct 14 19:01:30 1998:

        People who look like penii.


#27 of 404 by senna on Wed Oct 14 19:13:58 1998:

The problem I have is that the phrase "hate crime" can be used as an
inflammatory tag to railroad people into punishments they don't deserve.  It
can be (and, if I recall correctly, has been) used as a political tool.  Hate
crimes are terrible, along with any other kind of crime.  However, using that
phrase tends to make people begin to lose sight of facts.


#28 of 404 by gypsi on Wed Oct 14 21:31:48 1998:

Brighn - I have to agree with you.  Reading erotic lit turns me on,
but pornos make me sick.  


#29 of 404 by fitz on Wed Oct 14 22:57:23 1998:

Question related to this topic:  My wife said that K. Couric on  the Today
show implied that James Dobson was culpable for this incident, an accusation
that gained Mr. Dobson rebuttal time on the Today show.  I have searched the
Web and sever newspaper archives, but I can't find anything to substantiate
this incident.  Anyone know something about this?


#30 of 404 by johnnie on Thu Oct 15 01:34:28 1998:

and in further news of the nasty people in the world:

Anti-gay church plans demonstration at funeral

Meanwhile, the Rev. Fred Phelps, the leader of a Topeka, Kansas, church
whose members regularly engage in anti-homosexual picketing, said he
was planning a demonstration at Shepard's funeral. 

Gov. Jim Geringer said he cannot stop Phelps from coming, but said
precautions would be taken to make sure Friday's services are not
interrupted. Geringer said Phelps' group is "just flat not welcome. What 
we don't need is a bunch of wing nuts coming in." 

Phelps said he had asked for protection from the Wyoming governor's 
office because his church had received at least seven death threats 
since word spread his pickets would be going to Laramie. "We're not 
going to tolerate any violence from these homosexuals," Phelps
said. "They are the most violent people in the world. Here they are 
talking about what happened to this poor boy, and they turn around and 
make death threats against us." 


#31 of 404 by scg on Thu Oct 15 04:35:15 1998:

Yuck.


#32 of 404 by senna on Thu Oct 15 05:11:01 1998:

Doesn't sound like a normal church to me.


#33 of 404 by rcurl on Thu Oct 15 05:23:20 1998:

"wing nuts"?

Sounds like a "hate" church. Maybe it has a connection with Milosovec.


#34 of 404 by gypsi on Thu Oct 15 05:46:08 1998:

Why would a church protest a funeral for crying out loud?  


#35 of 404 by aruba on Thu Oct 15 15:29:11 1998:

Re #20:  So are you saying, Rane, that there is some legal concept of a
"purposeful motive"?  I am pretty foggy on the finer legal points here.  If
this is not a legal term, then do you just mean that there are certain motives
that a judge/jury will find credible, and others that they won't?  If so I'm
not clear on  what  a law would do to change that.


#36 of 404 by rcurl on Thu Oct 15 16:08:48 1998:

The difference between first and second degree murder is motive (or lack
thereof). Manslaughter is murder without motive. There is some slight
difference between manslaughter and wrongful-death, which lies in motive.


#37 of 404 by brighn on Thu Oct 15 17:03:58 1998:

Here is my stance on hate crimes:
Hate crimes have two elements: The crime itself, and the underlying hate-based
motivation. If the crime itself is illegal already, making it illegal again
is redundant; if it isn't already illegal, it shouldn't be *just* because of
the motivation. The underlying motivation is protected by the First Amendment.
Therefore we shouldn't have specific "hate crime" laws.

When a member of the KKK burns a cross on the lawn of somebody they don't
like, they're doing the following:
(1) Destroying property
(2) Recklessly endangering themselves, their victims, and innocent bystanders
(3) Trespassing
(4) Threatening/extorting
(5) Saying, "I don't like you."

(1)-(4) are all illegal independent of the motivation of the act.
(5) is protected by the First Amendment.

(For those who are confused by the statement that "if the crime isn't already
illegal...", I'm referring to hate crimes that are not illegal indepent of
the hate crime legislation. Things like, for instance, shouting at a group
of gays, "Hey, you faggots! Go away!")


#38 of 404 by scg on Thu Oct 15 17:44:57 1998:

The homocide laws, as I understand them, are:
First Degree Murder:  intentional and premeditated
Felony Murder:  a death happens as a result of another felony
Second Degree Murder:  intentional, but not planned ahead of time.
First Degree Manslaughter:  intentional, "in the heat of passion."
Second Degree Manslaughter:  accidental, but preventable.
Justifiable homocide:  intentional, but justified.  Not a crime.
Excusable Homocide:  accidental and unavoidable.  Also not a crime.

Felony Murder would cover cases such as a bank robbery where the robbers may
not have planned to kill anybody, but killed somebody anyway.  Felony murder
gets treated as first degree murder.

First Degree Manslaughter covers cases where somebody gets very angry at
somebody else, and kills them.  The example given in my high school law class
would be where somebody comes home and finds his wife in bed with another man,
and kills one or both of them (although maybe that would now be considered
domestic violence and taken more seriously).  The idea there is that if it's
done in immediate anger it's assumed to been less malicious, or something like
that.

Second Degree Manslaughter would cover somebody who did something by accident
that should have been avoidable, and caused a death.  Deaths in traffic
accidents often fall into this category.

Justifiable homocide covers things like self defense.  It's not illegal,
assuming you can convince the police or judge or jury that that was what was
going on.

Excusable Homocide covers situations such as somebody driving, obeying all
traffic laws, when somebody jumped two feet in front of their car and they
couldn't stop in time.  Again, it's not illegal.

At least, that's my memory of things from my high school law class.  Hopefully
one of the lawyers here will jump in and correct me where this is wrong.

I suppose what hate crime legislation could do is move something like this
case, where the people who did it are claiming to have been angry at their
victim for making a pass at them, from something that could be argued to have
been in the heat of passion, and therefore first degree manslaughter, to
something that would clearly be Felony Murder.


#39 of 404 by jep on Thu Oct 15 19:08:42 1998:

#37 is pretty close to how I see things, too.


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