Why do people in the community get so self-righteous?  I've heard accounts
of folks telling others what they should or should not do.

My sister had problems for a while because the lesbians on her campus told
her butching up was a sign of maturity.  She did for a while, but still wore
makeup.  Later, she grew her hair back out.  Then she had problems when she
told them she wasn't going to get into any relationships for a while.  her
first gf was extremely manipulative and angered her a lot.  She lost a lot
of friends.  I don't know what they think now that she's seeing a guy, but
I doubt she cares.

I have taken a lot of flak because I have chosen to follow my religion.  I'm
not perfect, but right now, I think it's best.  My chosen lifemate is female
anyway, which shouldn't come as a surprise since I lean towards females. 
Monogamy seems to be a philosophical issue in a bisexual debate, but it's the
option I've chosen.  Then there is the plethora of misinformation and
undereducated attitudes both gays and straights have about bis.
I especially hate statements like "You're living a lie," or the contempt that
has been harbored against bis because of 'Het Privilege.'

What more could I say?  I'm sure some of you could add something..

79 responses total.

All people are individuals who make and live their own choices.  Most people
don't really like things that way - to some degree they'd like to be and/or 
make other people be robots mindlessly programmed to act "the way people
should act".  Being independent makes it hard to be popular with robotics-
happy majority of people.  Many think that you're defective if there aren't
a lot of robots with the same programming as yours, and being uncertain/
insecure/in transition makes the "defective" diagnosis much more popular. 
"Force conversion", "torment", and number of other strategies are typical
programmed responses to "defective" units.....

At least for me, refusing to recognize the robot world-view is the single
best strategy for getting along in a world full of robots.... 

        Hmmm ... I'll respond to this once GREX stops lagging so badly I can't
see what I'm typing on a dialup line. :P

   you have a point there, lumen.  several years ago i dropped out of
the local (a2-ypsi) gaylbt community because i got tired of being told
by this or that militant separatist feminist zealot that i wasn't
lesbian enough, or that i wasn't being a lesbian correctly.  the real
breaking point came when i got involved with a woman who had <gasp>
*male* children.  every now and then i poke my head back in to see if
any of the politically-correct rhetoric has changed.  except for the
move from flannel, short hair, and combat boots to lipstick-lesbian
chic, it still seems to be pretty much the same.  so most of the people
i hang out with now are straight, and the glbt's i know all tend to
be as tolerant of members of the glbt community as one could wish.

human nature?
different = bad... 
( oddly enough taht comes into play when you aren't being DIFFERENT
the SAME <shrug>
then again i never thought of or felt a part of the 'community'
 oh well eh?
since moving to chicago i's say most people shrug the info off.
I have a lot less freinds (that i actually see everyday) to worry
about
and so far have only come across the occasional homophobe at work to
deal with...
 i guess THAT differes because back home if yer out the towm and
their cousins 3 counties over all knew... whether they new YOU or
not
<blink>

        
        Re #3:

        I don't, with all due deference, see how you could be much more
"lesbian", however that's supposed to look.  I don't figure anyone'd consider
you a lipstick lesbian by any stretch of the imagination.  They're on crack.

        Re #0:

        This is a natural consequence of seperatism.  The policy that a group
can be empowered by being seperate, and then, once empowered, join the
mainstream culture, is flawed from the outset, and this kind of attitude is
one of the consequences of it's flawed-ness.

I'm confused... would she have been less of a traitor to her gender if she
had only had female offspring? (re #3)

I mean, ostracizing someone for having children makes at least a minimal
amount of sex (it means they've had interactions of some sort with a male,
even if it's just in the form of a sperm bank withdrawal). (amount of sense,
not sex). But ostracizing them because of the GENDER of their offspring? Isn't
that pushing it?

(Adopted offspring, maybe?)

(good point)

I don't get it either -- but when I was hanging out with a lesbian-separatist
group in the mid-80s I got the same grief because I had two sons.  When thewy
were very little it wasn't an issue because I never cut their hair and they
were "pretty", so I guess many people assumed they were girls.  But when they
got old enough that they began to develop haevier male features, I felt I was
being pushed out because of them.  <shrug>  I decided that I didn't need them,
either and wandered off.

re #5:  What do you mean?  Are you referring to the community or to me?
<lumen is puzzled>

I haven't been bi long enough to be able to respond to this, but I've heard
a lot, not to mention read a lot, about it.  Why, for heaven's sake do
lesbians have to be Man-Haters?  Why do they have to be Butch?  If I ever
decided to get into a SS relationship, would I have to go Butch and Hate Men?

Why Can't We All Just Get Along?

My feeling is that these lesbians are really more misanthropes than lesbians.
They stand out because of their extremism/separatism and self-identification
as lesbians.  "Normal" nothing-wrong-with-guys-they-just-aren't-my-style
lesbians just don't stand out the way the extremists do. 

in taht case i basiocally know your normal run of the mill
lesbians... odd to say 'cuz NONE of my freinds are normal...
i have a problem with the communities own stereotype of what gays
and lesbians should be
<harumph>

wish font was here..loved her opinions on this subject..

Some highly political feminists are lesbian for political reasons.  A friend
of mine who is somewhat bi had some dealings with them.  They are opposed to
men and therefore have decided to be lesbian.  (My friend seems to be oriented
towards people about her size, not people a particular sex, and she is around
5' 2".  Eventually married a small man.)  I don't know why anyone would hate
all members of either sex.

re #15:  Hmmm..makes sense-- it would seem to further a political agenda.

HOw do you decide to be lesbian? Or not?

Easy, Katie. You're a bisexual female and make a conscious decision not to
hav relationships with men anymore, sexual or otherwise, and make a further
decision that, since you're not going to have relationships with men, you
might as well call yourself a lesbian.

Yep, that's it.  Kinda bothers me a little since it undermines bisexual
credibility.

   lots of things to respond to here.  jazz, it seemed to be my 
politics rather than my appearance which set off most of the militant 
feminist separatist zealots.  to look at me, most people would think i'm 
the most stomping, butch, militant, combat-boot-wearin', tool-carryin' 
diesel-dyke around.  that's not actually the case, as most people who 
know me irl can see.  the problems were that i had straight male 
friends, i didn't (and still don't) think that all men are inherently 
and irreparably defective, i fairly frequently pointed out that one's 
choice of bed partners really doesn't affect the greater political 
picture, and i refused to vote for candidates simply because now or hrc 
or whomever was endorsing them.  therefore, i was just not serious 
enough about being a lesbian and i might as well go find a boyfriend 
(never mind the fact that i utterly fail to find men sexually 
attractive).

   as far as my ex-wife's kids go, they were all her own, not adopted.  
apparently having male children is an insult to lesbians everywhere.  
this was reinforced when i saw a lengthy article in "off our backs," a 
militant lesbian rag, on the political correctness and general 
acceptability of allowing male children of lesbians to even enter 
lesbian-owned businesses (late '89 or early '90 was when that gem was 
published).

   bookworm, being butch man-haters is not a requirement for lesbians, 
much as some would like us to believe that.  granted, i tend to be more 
macho than a lot of women i know (and even a few men ;), but it's not 
anything i set out to do deliberately.  it doesn't mean i hate men, it 
doesn't mean i have a "thing" about being "the guy" in a relationship, 
it just means that i find t-shirts and jeans comfortable and see no 
reason why women can't cook *and* fix their own cars.

I'll bet there are quite a few straight women who *do* fix their own cars.
I had a community college teacher who did.  In fact, her sister was
pretty butch-looking and did a masculine, tough job, and was straight although
everyone thought she was lesbian.

Anyway, I think a lot of women *could* fix their own cars, but a lot figure
they don't want to.

Well, I could probably do it, if I could find anybody willing to teach me.
I can change a tire and put gas into a car, though.  Don't know if that
counts.

Hey, you're ahead of _me_ on mechanical aptitude. ('course, as a queer guy
I'm supposed to stick to decorating, right?) :)

   well, i'll admit i was using stereotypes up there to get my point 
across.  the thing is, in order to be lesbians all that's required is 
that women be sexually attracted to other women rather than men.  in the 
words of a friend of mine, "real lesbians don't have boyfriends."  :)

um...

If that's true where does that leave me?  Knitting Carburators for a living??

Not necessarily. You could also weld sofa cushions.

Heh.  There's no dress code/activity stereotype for bis.

Aw man....I was getting into the whole sofa-welding idea.

Hmmm..sofa-welding.

(I don't think that would be very good at _all_. Can you imagine trying to
cuddle with a *sofa* in the middle??? I didn't think so.)

I think everyone should wear clothes made out of carrots. That would be cool.

Giving a whole new meaning to "dressing up"....
My dear, you look positively *radishing* in that grown...
...attacked & killed by a herd of hungry deer, a terrible hunting accident...

<rotfl>

"I Hate Celery!"
        -the audience

Have you tried organic celery?  Keep an open mind.

I don't like celery, 'cept in soups and V-8.

Some of it is rather bitter, but you can't judge all celery by only a few
experiences.  Is hate the proper word?

What does celery have to do with Family Values?

Some trans-spacial surreality came in from enigma.cf, then keesan.....

In short, drift.

yeah, drift, but I think we were talking about personal preference defining
how people group themselves.

(keesan, it's not so much that's its bitter-- raw celery is stringy and hard
to chew after the flavor)

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss