At what age, and how, did you first realize that you were attracted to women,
or men, or both (in equal or differing frequencies), or neither, or whatever
(if it is an illegal whatever, I suggest answering as a newuser)?  This
question is for people of all orientations and ages.  I got the idea while
reading summaries of various books available on tape for the blind and
physically handicapped, including:
1.  The Hurry-Up Song:  A Memoir of Losing My Brother (Clifford Chase). 
"As they became adults and admitted to being gay....."
2.  Serving in Silence, Margerethe Cammermeyer.  "Cammermeyer, a divorced
monther of four who had discovered her sexual preference only a year earlier.'
(not preference, not orientation - is this perhaps a political decision?)
3.  A Separate Creation:  The Search for Biological Origins of Sexual
Orientations, Chandler Burr.  Talks about genetics and hormones, social,
political, and legal ramifications of research findings.  (Do people make
decisions based on social norms, or is this purely genetic?)
4.  All-American Boy:  A Memoir, Scott Peck.  "As a small boy, Peck was asked
at school who he wanted to marry, and he answered 'Alan'..."
Scott Peck is the son of marine colonel Frank Peck, who testified against
allowing gays in the military.  Margarethe was discharged from being a colonel
in the Amry for admitting she was a lesbian.  
5.  Gay New York:  Gender, Urban CUlture, and the Making of the Gay Male
WOrld, 1890-1940.  George Chauncey.

(All these books are in the Mar-Apl, 1998 catalog, along with several fiction
selections about gays.  The National Library for the Blind is attempting to
find books for everyone.)
        How much do you think your sexual orientation was influence by your
environment, including social norms?  If it were considered 'normal' to be
gay or bisexual, do you think you would have developped differently?  Is is
possible for your orientation to change over time, and if so, how and why?

186 responses total.

For 2.  read 'note preference', rather than 'not preference'.
I thought my camp swimming counselor, of the same name and sex as me, was
wonderful, when I was 14, but I think this might be more a phase of hero
worship.  I have had many 14 year old girls want to write to me as a penpal,
who lost interest within a couple of years.  Maybe under different
circumstances things would have gone differently?
I recall first having a crush at age 17, on a MOTOS.  Have never been
romantically or physically attracted to a MOTSS.  Two friends, one a former
roommate, discovered in their thirties or forties that they were bi, but in
one case it may have been more of a political decision, as the person was
actively involved in NOW.  She said she always preferred men her own size,
and she is 5'2".  Currently married to a small man.  For a while she was
living with another woman on weekend, who she complained was only interested
in watching TV.
        I am too old to remember when I first discovered an interest in the
opposite sex.  Maybe conference members who are younger could give us more
details.  WOuld like to hear from other straights as well as gays.

you're never too old to remember... 

i was about 10 when i started having distinct sexual feelings... maybe a
little older. i didn't have a clear distinction in my mind in re: gender
(MOTOS or MOTSS), but because of the time, i ignored the MOTSS attractions.
And then, because of the shame of experimenting with my brother, I downright
repressed them, until my mid-20s.

How can somebody not realize that they are gay or bi until their forties?
That is what supposedly happend with the colonel I mentioned above, who was
47.  Did she just repress her feelings for thirty years?

These things happen. Repression, oppression, denial...

Lack of information, too. Having feelings but not understanding, because you
don't know what they mean.

   i've pretty much been a lesbian all my life, but it wasn't until
i was in college (read: out of my parents' house) that i felt secure
enough to come out of the closet.  i've never felt sexual attraction
to males.  ever.  when i was in high school, i didn't really date but
i did make up a couple infatuations.  it was the early eighties, i was
already regarded as something of a freak at school, and my h.s. was
not in a place noted for liberalism.  until i came out, my siblings
more or less assumed i was a late bloomer.  my parents were utterly
clueless until i came out to them (never mind that i had been living
with a woman and her four kids for over four years at that point, nor
ever brought a male companion to any family function).

I caught on about a year ago now, although I think I'd had at least some clue
for quite some time...  What really jolted me into thinking about the subject
was listening to a female friend talking about a date with her boyfriend, and
realizing that I was imagining myself in her role as I pictured it in my mind.
The curious thing is, I'd thought about the topic a good deal before, not as
"You know, I think I might be bi", but as "You know, wouldn't it be
interesting if I was bi?" - imagining it as a purely hypothetical thing, not
as an actual possibility.  Then again, I can be damn good at repression when
I feel like it :)

Did anybody's parents ever try to push them into dating (the sex that they
were not interested in)?  My mother decided when I was in my mid teens that
I should be dating and arranged for me to go to the movies with her friend's
son.  I have no idea what we said to each other (I had forgotten, I ran across
it in her diary).  And bowling on a double date with another friend's son,
his friend (who I knew from nursery school) and my closest girlfriend.  It
seemed rather silly to me, as I was not interested in bowling and was not
friends with her friend's son, but she wanted me to go through the ritual,
or maybe she had to tell her friends I was dating?  As long as I can remember,
at least half of my friends have been the opposite sex, but when I was in
college, I would tell my mother I was studying chemistry with a friend and
having supper in his dorm first, and it became a 'date' for her.  
        Did your parents ever insist on setting up dates for you, or
misinterpreting your friendships with the sex they wanted you to 'date', or
trying to set up 'dates' for you?  I have never been a parent, but suppose
it is tempting to try to mold your children into what you think they would
be happiest as.
        It sounds like parents prefer to interpret their kids life as being
the way they want it to be.   The actual facts are sometimes harder to take.
That was interesting, void, about your parents being so blind.  I assume you
are a bit older than Orinoco.  Orinoco, how do parents of your generation feel
about their kids being gay?  Is it easier to let them know than it must have
been for void?  In my generation, it was horribly shocking for parents if two
people of the opposite sex lived together.  (MY grandfather's sister lived
with someone for a while before marrying him, must have been in the twenties,
but she was a bit atypical - a very interesting person, I remember helping
her find some water to take her medicine with at my grandfather's funeral -
we found a large aluminum pot hanging from an outdoor faucet).  But it was
fine for two people of the same sex to live together.  I wonder if every
generation is shocked by the next one.

Well, my parents have been remarkably cool about the whole thing.  I'm bi,
not gay, so the first question doesn't really apply, but no, I haven't felt
any pressure to date in either direction.  They're both fine with my being
queer, although they were a bit skeptical about my motives for coming out,
and I still don't think they're entirely convinced I could actually wind up
involved with a guy.

<grin>  WEll, technically half of my parental guidance knows.  (I say
technically because it is possible that my mom knows, but found out the
difficult way)  My parents were content for me to say asexual forever.
They were upset when i started dating, and the only person she was happy with
was my then girlfirend (then again, I don't know if she knew we were dating).
I came out to my dad and all he cared about was me being able to stay
finantially afloat.  (or that's what it seems like...every time the subject
comes up it inevitably goes to the fact I don't have a (real) job)
Since is late conversion to christianity, I don't know what his personal
feelings are, and I don't know if he's told my mom.
To make things more complicated, I am out of the house and living with an
ex-boyfriend.  (LONG story)  All I can say is that culture has a strong
binding to one's psyche.  For most of my life, I have wanted to do what I 
*should* do, the *right* thing, and had no consept of doing things for myself.
OR because I felt like it.  I'd known for a long time there was something
"horrible" burried inside of me that I was terified of.  SOmething that I
lashed out at mmyself at every opportunity.  It made me different and act
wierd.  I was afraid to find out what it was.
And as my aditudes about sexuality eased (I didn't have a problem with
homosexuality, I had problems with sexuality PERIOD.  For the longest time
I refused to be a sexual being for whatever reason, even if I was seeing
someone.  it was wierd.  Funny, I feel much better now, and don't have those
wierd angry bouts after sex anymore.  OR feel "icky" etc.
Bored yet?  :-P

parts of that , font, i could have written......

I think parents also sometimes know more than they let on, but try to pretend
differently.  Font, you certainly are leading a complicated life.  My parents
also used to worry about my finances.  I wonder if there are parents who would
rather see their kids stay single than 'living in sin'.  (The definition of
sin seems to change regularly - it used to mean living with a MOTOS.)  Or
rather see them being properly religious than happy.  In my parents'
generation, if you were living with someone and you both came for a visit,
you had to sleep in separate rooms.  (It happened to me with my mother and
two different someone's, and with both their mothers, and my mother also would
not let my cousin and the woman he'd been living with for five years stay
together so they went to a motel).  Could be they were concerned about the
neighbors.  Do parents still hide things from the neighbors, or manage to
ignore what you do outside of their house, but make strict rules for in it?
It must get a bit more confusing for two MOTSS's.  For instance if Font were
to bring home a girlfriend for a few days, would fon'ts mother insist that
they sleep in different rooms, or pretend they were 'just friends' and put
them together.  It must be difficult to be a parent and keep up with what
you are supposed to want the neighbors to think.

Well, I've never been involved with a MOTSS, so I can't really speak for that
end of it.  My parents are, though, more squeamish about my spending the night
at a female friend's house than with a male friend, even when both _really
are_ just friends.

oddly my parents were ones never to like me to "entertain" in my
bedroom (females taht is) during the day. let alonr at ( heaven
forbid) for the night... BUT had no problems with me sharing a bed
with a male.. even when they suspected ( correctly) we were more
than "just friends"...... parents.. sheesh!

In my parents' generation, people did not seem to have any friends of the
opposite sex.  I can think of none for my father, and one for my mother, a
neighbor that used to fix her car for her and she would send over some home
cooking.  So they automatically assumed that any relationship between the
sexes was a romance (which in my case was mostly wrong).  For gays, do parents
still make odd assumptions, for instance, that any friendship between two
MOTSS who are non-bi gay (is there one word for this?) is a 'relationship'?
Or is it now considered normal to have friends of both sexes and all
orientations?  (When I was growing up I don't think the word 'orientation'
meant anything other than which direction the furniture was facing.  My mother
managed once to tell me, when I was way past college, that one of her friend's
son's had AIDS and was living with another man.  But this was not a
possibility that you would ever mention to minors).

It's hard for me to remember all the details..all I remember was getting into
porn-- looking first at the underwear/swimsuit models and realizing I was
looking eagerly at both sexes (and strangely, the same body parts) to the time
I hit Playboy, Penthouse, and Playgirl when I was in middle school (don't ask
how I snuck my peeks).

Another thing I began noticing more and more may not be quite appropriate to
repeat here.

I remember guilt, shame, denial-- being called 'fag' in middle school really
stung.  I suppose I gradually became aware when I was in high school because
by the time I entered college, I started beating myself up inside.  I had a
bit of a crush on a band member of Depeche Mode (and I'd bet he's bi) as I
started getting more into their music.  I was into wearing doo rags at the
time, and I remember wearing it more like a hair band than a headband (y'know,
as the schoolgirls do) and telling a dormmate I didn't care that it looked
femmy.  Word gets around fast in Mormon circles (I was at Ricks) and I figured
it had something to do with a coy grin I got from a guy a few days later. 
I was thrilled and scared as hell at the same time.

I was pretty mental at the time and I left that college.  When I crashed into
my hometown community college, I slowly came out to the family-- g/b
community, that is in my college choir.  Two gay guys I told-- I don't know
if the bi girl ever found out.  It wasn't fun-- one of them was a high school
acquaintance, and he proceeded to dump his emotional baggage on me about his
failed relationships and other problems.  He got rather confused when I
decided to retreat to the closet-- or rather, stick to my preference of MOTOS.

I don't remember when I told my father, but after I found out he thought it
synonomously with straight up homosexuality, I never brought it up again.

My next school, well, in short, I had to work for the food service for
graduation ceremonies, I crashed at a friend's, and I got drunk and had my
first encounter with a guy.  Let him suck me off-- wasn't comfortable with
anything else.  Very bad experience.

My sister was coming out as a lesbian at the time and my mother just about
died when she found out when I told her of that experience (gee, aren't I
trusting?)

Then there was an friend who couldn't stand me in high school but felt bad
later for how he'd treated me.  He was Mormon, like me.  It wasn't long before
he came on to me, and I wasn't ready to make that kind of decision to be with
a guy, much less choose him.  Very, very, very long story.

I'm still very much confused, and very upset that many have advised me to
leave my church.  I don't want to do that.  Talking to my sister last night,
she made it sound as if I was a hypocrite.  Maybe I am.  I am sick of all the
shit and head games people play with me-- my feelings and my decisions are
*my business*-- but maybe she's right-- maybe I can't talk the talk if I don't
walk the walk, but part of me still says that's bullshit.

enough of my life story..continue..

Gee, it seems as though you had mainly negative experiences, lumen. I'm sorry.
Doesn't sound like fun at all. :(

Back to the topic of spending the night... I have one friend (openly lesbian)
who's parents won't let a guy cross over the threshold of the doorway to her
room, but have nothing against letting other openly out girls spend the night
and sleep in the same bed as her. It's really odd. But then maybe that's just
me.

If you ask me, her parents just have a better case of denial going than most.

No, Tricia, it hasn't been fun.

Denial?  Yeah, most likely.  I think some parents will deny things
differently.  When my sister started going out with her first gf, my folks
thought her PDA's were to make them mad.  But hey, they took it better than
most-- there was the time her gf lived with us, the time my sis left to
Seattle to live with her, and then the time she moved to N. Carolina to do
the same..it's been crazy at our house.

Ouch, lumen.  Certainly sounds like fate has dealt you a bum hand.  Kinda
sounds like you need someone trustworthy, mature, etc. (withOUT their
own agenda) to talk to, but that you won't find that in your religion. 
Don't know where to tell you to turn.  I hope that you can start to get
away from the negative environment and start repairing and discovering 
yourself in positive ways.


On the parents who seem clueless/careless about MOTSS relationships - in
a fair number of cases i suspect that they aren't much interested in the
homophobe/hatred thing, but are real interested in avoiding "accidental"
pregnancy.  

#15> The comments about the porn reminds me of a two-page spread I saw once.
On the left page was a B&W photo of a well-built man (topless, I believe, with
an obvious bulge); on the right was a similar photo of a woman.
In fine print at the bottom of both pages was a text to the effect of: Which
did you notice first? Which did you spend the most time looking at? Think
about your own reactions, and ask yourself if you're as sure of your sexuality
as you thought. 
The ad had been purchased by some gay rights group or other, and I thought
it was quite effective. Myself, I lingered more on the guy, if only because
it's rarer to see a really hot photo of a guy than of a girl.

About parents:
It is my experiance that parents, when faced with a new and different
situation (IE homosexuality in their "kids") then tend to revert to what their
parents used to do.  And since most parents in their generation used to
pretend it didn't exist in *their* kids (who naturally *wouldn't* be if they
were "raised right")  then you get those patterns where odd logic reigns.
(ibd...Liza's parents)
About Lumen:
EEk!.. <supportive hug if ok>  
My suggestion is to find a therapist (be careful be *very* careful) who is
not offically alligned to any particular religeon, but is open enough to
accept you *baseline* for who you are.  YOu should be able to tell this in
the first cession. (ie...dont' get the one who critisizes you for any of your
core beliefs, or yawns and acts like he/she doesn't care...and pick the gender
of which you know you'd more openly talk to)  Again, this is grain-o-salt
stuff, but it's all I can think of to offer.  I have a name if you are
interested....

Well, it's funny...cuz it reminds me of how I used to notice women more...
and was convinced that every single one of them was judging me harshly.
I was *terrified* of what women thought of me.  I even believed at one point
that the reason I noticed them more in mazazines and ads and newspapers etc
is because the media was manipulating me.  (I currently think that the idea
for this idea was actually from the media, and not my interest..the rest I
take full responsability for ;-)
I still find myself operating this way unconciously sometimes.  
Especially when at cons etc.  <eeek>
Men are less threatening to me because there is none of that sexual baggage
there.

   re back there a ways:  my parents took the news rather badly, but
they're also older than most other peoples' parents here, i think. 
since i came out to them, my father has mentioned my lesbianism exactly
twice.  the only time worth mentioning here was about a month after
i had come out to my parents, when he presented me with a list of
reasons to stop being a lesbian and offered to pay for me to see a
shrink and get "cured."

I had a short-term roommate once who said he tried to get cured by
psychotherapy, and finally decided it was a waste of time.  It is like trying
to cure yourself of being left-handed.  This was about 20 years ago, are
people still trying for 'cures'?  I recall my parents forcing me to wear
dresses in hopes that I would start liking them, pretty ridiculous.  Are there
actually people who can switch orientation just by talking about it?  I would
guess you are more likely to be cured of fake heterosexuality through therapy.

Dunno.

re #21: My psychiatrist is already pretty supportive.  He works with me on
*everything* (but the main focus is med management for bipolar).  I have a
great counselor here at the school who I haven't seen yet this quarter, but
I've seen quite a bit in other quarters (and the going rate is much cheaper
than when I saw a psychotherapist).

re #19: heh, you'd be surprised.  I was talking with my branch president about
some of this today.  Most of my church leaders have been very supportive. 
The tenets remain the same, but I'm not worried.  I'll make my own decision
about what I want to do and what I want to follow, and anyone who thinks I'm
being a traitor or unfair to myself (in either case) can just take a long walk
off a cliff for all I care.

   re #24:  my father is old enough and conservative enough to be
convinced that homosexuality is a mental illness.  there are also
therapists out there who claim they can cure homosexuality.  from what
i understand, my father made the same offer to my gay brother after
he came out (ten years earlier than i did).  my brother also declined.

Some folks have suggested I try dating a bisexual woman.  I did that very
briefly, which ended as quickly as it did because of her multiple problems.

But maybe there's something there-- the last girl I dated had a few traits
considered to be masculine.

I wouldn't know.

That seems like a funny piece of advice to me.

What traits are considered to be masculine (or feminine) nowadays?

<font laughs>  Don't ask me.  I was raised fairly down the middle.  <grin>
(this is re#29, btw)

RE 24#  I was cured of fake heterosexuality myself...<g>  one of the toughest
things I have ever had to do.  I am sorry to hear about your parents, void.
(sounds vaguely like my grandparents, frankly)  I feel silly saying  "I'm
sorry." but I dunno...
 Lumen: what needs to happen can only happen from within. Dating a Bi woman
will not nessasairly help or hinder. <shrug> I've known many a straight man
who's dated bi women and they weren't changed at all...I mean how could it?
If one is really *something* and you know it, there is'nt much that
can be done...wich is good.  (I have heard tales of LSD "curing"
homosexuallity...but it sounds more like a well-imprinted delusion, to
me...don't tell the conservatives!!! on the other hand it hasn't made any of
the people I know more or less the brand of sexuality they are, so is it just
another fabrication of the great (and strained) imagination of the military?)
My advice to those who would 'cure' homosexuality:  
                        "if it ain't broke
                                don't fix it."
But I think it would take an open mind to apretiate this joke. ;-)

Masculine traits:
Fixing cars. Watching sports for the action. Watching Baywatch for the
breasts. Working outside. 
  
Feminine traits:
Fixing hems. Watching sports for the butts. Watching Baywatch for the drama.
Working inside.
  
Val's three out of four on the masculine traits.
I'm three out of four on the feminine traits.
Neither one of us watch Baywatch, but if we did, it would probably be for the
breasts.
  
Stereotypes are all very silly, if you ask me.

("the drama?")

(heh. that was meant as a blonde joke. =} )

No, then it would still be wrong. The blonds watch it for the guy's butts.
(The drama's over their head.)

heh

re #30: I suppose my point was the ppl I tend to date don't tend to fit gender
role norms

Have these norms changed much in the past fifty years or so?

Hi all! I just want to say That I have a friend who I grew up with who is gay
and recently came out to me. I was very happy he did. I hugged him and told
him I loved him no matter what and I do. I have known for many years he was
gay-well I guess I assumed-now I know-anyway I can't imagime how difficult
it was for him to keep who he is hidden for so long. I feel releived for him
to be able to talk about and be who he really is. To anyone out there who is
is dealing with comeing out - I say be who YOU ARE-not what others think you
should be or want you to be. If someone says they hate you remember its THEIR
fear speaking. I like to think that everything is as it should be at any given
time - In other words there is a reason you are who you are and a reason you
are on this earth. I know its easier said then done but Try not to let the
fear and ignorance of others interrupt your path in life. Flow~~ Oh and I'm
sure your higher power (god) loves you!!!.

<applause>

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss