I think font's plot to stir of this conference is working :)

One thing that struck me, actually, in your 'rant' in item one, is that you
used the word 'dyke' as a friendly term, which brought an old question of mine
back to the surface.  I'd be curious to hear opinions...
Where is the line between acceptable terms and offensive terms for you?  (i.e.
is 'queer' an insult or a useful all-purpose word?  is 'faggot' or 'dyke' a
slur or a joke?)

For that matter, I guess, the language confusion doesn't stop with supposed
insults.  Does 'gay' only apply to men?  Does it include bisexuals, or only
homosexuals?  What does 'queer' include, anyway?

Like I said, I think it would be interesting to see what everyone thinks...go
forth an ramble.

61 responses total.

I'm not gay. I'm queer. I'm queer for several reasons: I'm bisexual, I'm
polyamorous, and I have numerous fetishes, including BDSM. 
Among other queer and queer-friendly foks, I'm a queen, fag, bitch, pansy,
faggot, and so forth. Any of those terms can be used perjoratively, as well.
I feel comfortable using those terms, as well as dyke, butch, and lezzie,
among *appropriate friends* -- those who match the terms, and who don't *mind*
the terms. If I knew a Lesbian, for instance, who was sensitive to being
called a dyke, I wouldn't call her that (then again, most of my friends have
my same twisted sick sense of humor, so it's usually not an issue).

The preceding has been my opinion of the moment, subject to change with my
mood. =}

All those words have fuzzy meanings, and lots of people have hot-button
reactions.  Better to learn what someone calls himself/herself/itself,
go with that, then learn what he/she/it actually means by the word(s)
as you get to know 'em.  [This response seems correct, but boring.] 

Well, I have this mood thing...there are days when I resent having to have
a lable period.  There are some times when I find "dyke" kinda fun and
amusing...other times (when I am feeling particularly grrly and stuff
lezie (or however it's spelled) like me.  Alot of the time i do find myself
calling myself a lesbian (though I still want to visit the island of lesbos
to see if I *really* like it there <g>).  Um...like when I start quoting
sapho...(more jokes, egad!)
The others are pretty ok with me...but fag sill has some strange childhood
associations that are kind of harsh.  (I am sensitive...I don't like being
that way, but it's there and I am not being honest if I don't mention it)
Speaking of language, I am working on a story (4 years in the making) about
a culture that doesn't have problems with homosexuality, and I was trying to
think of linguistical constructs that would imply a certian understanding that
homosexuality and bisexuality are integral parts or the psychology of
sexuality.  (sto me someone!  I am sounding like a sociology textbook! <g>)
They also don't have problems with poly relationships, but also have a consept
of a marrage of sorts...but it doesn't have the limitations that we have
(for example, if you marry someone, it is the same ceremony as if you make
someone your "sibling": only one or two words differ)
Btw, I am wary of "political correctness" cuz it sounds like orwellian
re-writing of history.  A part of the point of the story is to show that
a Matriarchy has problems just like a Patriarchy  (though that's just a part
of the back-ground, the entire plot is just a plot) etc etc...but I digress.
Any ideas?  

Hmmm...that's interesting.  Yeah, I think one of the hardest parts of writing
in a convincing fantasy setting is coming up with language and customs - it's
easy enough to say 'this culture accepts homosexuality', but that doesn't mean
it's easy to say 'here's how they'd talk about it'.
Is it that this culture you're imagining views both sexes as equivalent, or
just that they don't have the whole 'husband and wife' hangup that ours does?
I agree with you, Walter, on the 'correct but boring' bit.  If I was going
to be politically correct, it wouldn't be that much of an effort, but I don't
much like the sound of PC-talk.

Look in books on Germanic, Teutonic, and suchlike folklore, Font.
I beleive the relationship you're looking for in re: sibling-like marriage
is similar to the Northcentral European concept of "kith."

As to the other issue, numerous books on the issue of sexuality have suggested
that the modern conceptions of heterosexuality and homosexuality (as a
dichotomy) are fairly new, within the last few centuries. Many cultures have
institutionalized homosexuality (some native american groups come to mind,
for instance), while many other simply don't distinguish (the ancient Greeks,
for instance, condemned the Lesbians not because of MOTSS relations, but
because it was among *women*... Athenians are well known as being gay
pedophiles, as are some Italian Renaissance artists -- rumors about David's
relationship to Michelangelo, for instance). I should think that a culture
that makes no distinction between MOTOS and MOTSS love/sexuality simply
wouldn't have a linguistic distinction, unless it were residual from an
earlier culture that *did* distinguish. **If we don't make a sdistinction
between two things, we don't come up with different words for those things.**

An example being: Most whites classify Afriacn Americans as one group.
However, there are some in-group distinctions based on skin color, and so
African Americans refer to each other perjoratively as eggplants, mulatto,
etc... terms whites wouldn't be likely to have come up with on their own.
Likewise, for hets, lesbians are lesbians are lesbians, but within the lesbian
community the distinction is made between "masculine"/assertive/aggresive
types (butch/bull) and "feminine"/passive/softer (femme/lipstick).

Well, there was an earlier culture that did distinguish, and a goddess who
looked after.  (she's married to the goddess of war, btw)  It is a culture
where historically females were more revered than males, but this has changed
(in the way of all changing things...inconsistently changed...not all have
followed the change).  It is not a my way to bash the males, but a way to
do a flip-flop and see what's up with it.  

Hm. In that case, I would expect a lot of vestigial forms -- words that
reflect a previous dichotomy, but which are now fairly synonymous, in this
case ("vestigial forms" are forms which have to be memorized because the
psychological, sociological, or linguistic factors which generated them don't
exist anymore -- verb forms of "be" for instance).

I can hardly imagine a culture in which there wasn't _some_ distinction
between straight and queer relationships in their language.  Granted, it's
possible to call both 'love' - we do that now, and our culture makes a huge
distinction between the two even still.  

Think of it this way.  In our culture eye color isn't generally a huge deal.
Most people don't consider green eyes superior to brown or vice versa, and
we don't define people based on their eye color (putting aside aryan
supremacist groups and the like for a moment), and yet we still _distinguish_
between green and brown eyes.  It's possible to imagine a culture that
considers men and women equal, even interchangeable, but I have trouble
imagining a culture that _doesn't distinguish at all_ - if nothing else,
there's still the basic biological differences, even when the social
differences are gone.
So, I think it's perfectly reasonable to imagine a language in which the word
for 'homosexual' has no connotations of taboo or immorality, but there still
is a concrete difference between homosexual and heterosexual relationships,
and that difference isn't going to go away no matter how open the culture is.
So, I think the _word_ would survive even if the _connotations_ it has now
didn't.

I disagree, Ori. There are cultures that have as little as three basic colors.
The eye color thing doesn't work. We generated color distinctions for other
reasons, and applied them to eyes as a fallout.

Okay, it's a flawed metaphor...
But< I find it concievable that a culture would ahve only three different
color distinctions - color is a continuum, and you can put the line wherever
you want.  There is, for the most part, a concrete line between male and
female.  

Look, if nothing else you're going to get a distinction between 'the kind of
relationship where someone can get pregnant' and 'the kind of relationship
where someone can't'

Good point, I'll grant you that one.

The term I have used (for now) in my novel (since it is sort of focusing on
two female characters) is "lady lover" for *anyone* who loves women (male or
female) and "him lover" for those who like men.  Now the reson there isn't
much in the bi lines doesn't mean that there aren't bi ones (many women almost
*have* to be bi, as there are a signifacantly more females than males in this
society, and the overall population is deminishing due to outside influences)
but that relationships are more often assessed one at a time in the third
person.  It's a cultural thing.  (assessed=talked about...not to say that they
are strictly monogamous either...and it's not really a taboo, it's just
expected that you respect your Other's wishes (Other=main squeeze).)
And yes, there is a separate word for the sort of male you have around the
house to get pregnant with..  <g>  this is more lingusitic sediment from the
strictly matriarchal times...(I said earlier I was looking at matriarchy and
what the differences would be...not all of them being good) and it's not a
very flattering term...somehwere between "toy" and "worker".  Its' not quite
slave either, as these fellas have more rights...but it's still not *that*
great.  (it also depends on the matriarch, and how closesly she listens to
the rumors that males are more likely to kill cubs..this species is sorta cat
like, so the vague posibility is there...but they (the males) are usually more
feeling than that and are greatly upset by not being able to see their own
children till they get to a certain age...but this is somewhat off topic)

This sounds very interesting.  If it's ever looking presentable, I'd love to
see it.

(This is kind of tangential, but for some reason, an Ani DiFranco song comes
to mind... "There are a thousand shades of white and a thousand shades of
black...."  I think the song is "Every State Line".... who knows... I think
it is probably becuase of the way we like to put things in compartments, and
the languge we use towards thsat is limiting... )

yup...life wouldn't be nearly so interesting if it weren't true.
Blast the one who said there were only 8 different kinds of love!
<said with a smile>

How many different words besides 'queer' are used for GLBs and by GLBs, and
do they have different connotations when used by people inside and outside
the group, as did 'nigger' when used by whites or blacks?  If you call
yourself queer, I presume this is not an insult, whereas it might be if
someone else used it about you.  Am i right?  Is there some sort of insulting
term used by queers about other queers that they don't like?

If someone calls me a sexual orientation based name, I tend to ignore 
them knowing that I am more mature than they are, and in some cases that 
the term is true.

generic terms: queer and family are the major ones. "queer" is prjorative when
used by non-friendlies (i.e. unsupportives), and can be perjorative in-group.
"family" is not perjorative in-group so much as i think some people see it
as overly affectionate... it forces me to have an association with *all*
queers, whether i like them or not. "gay" generally doesn't apply to bisexuals
(whereas "queer" generally does), but otherwise seems to be the most neutral
term. "bent" is also used, though less commonly (as in opposition to
"straight"), and i imagine variations on "rainbow" and "pride" might be used
elsewhere, but i haven't heard them
  
for homosexual men (*and bis too): there's such a huge number of perjoratives
that have been reclaimed, to varying degrees. "sissy" is a specific kink (and
not always gay); "fag" and "faggot" are common in-group terms of affection;
"homo" is perjorative regardless, as far as i've always heard; the more
graphic terms, likewise (buttmunch, fudgepacker, pillowbiter), though i *have*
heard gay (in my case, bi, actually) men use them amongst each other in
hostile joking... non-perjoratives include, primarily, "gay", which is
ambiguous between homosexual men and homosexuals in general. 

for homosexual women: Lesbian and dyke are the primary terms. They pattern
similar to family and queer, in my experience: Lesbian and family are seen
as too "proper" by some, while "dyke" and "queer" are seen as too "vulgar"
for others. "grrl" is popular, though i've seen many references to "grrl"s
not as a sexual orientation, but to women who have chutzpah that LEsbians tend
to like (many musicians, for instance, are grrls even though their orientation
isn't known). "butch" and "femme" (also "deisel" and "lipstick", respectively)
are in-group pseudo-perjoratives (that is, queers use them to refer to each
other, and frequently to insult each other) for "masculine" and "feminie"
dykes, respectively.
  
speaking of in-group perjoratives, i can't believe i forgot "queen" -- which
can be perjorative both in and out-group, though i have a regular on-line
partner who's M>F TG and makes me call her "Queen" when I'm subbing to her
(i mentioned her before here, actually). "size queen" (a gay man who looks
primarily for large cocks), "pretty boy," "leather boy," and "bear" are also
in-group terms for specific types of men, frequently gay (though certainly
not always, especially with "bear")
  
and to end my little spiel on terms, "threesome" (the movie) included the term
"fag hag" for a (straight) woman who hangs out with gay men to gossip with
them...

Thanks, have you considered writing a dictionary?  It sounds like many if not
most terms used pejoratively from outside the group (maybe any group) can be
used sort of affectiontely within a group.  Isn't language interesting?
I am always amazed at how many categories people can find to put themselves
and other people in.  Can anyone else think of words you may have missed?
What does 'subbing' mean?
I thought dyke meant masculine lesbian, shows how much I know.

heheh"bent" odd, yet interesting brighn....
"not straight" has been a wordage i have used... doesn't relly get
to the point though 
ah well
never said the american language was THAT good.

In the American Heritage Dictionary I found:  lesbian, gay, fag(got), queer,
dike/dyke and butch, all listed as 'slang', and meaning female homosexual,
male homosexual, homosexual, or masculine lesbian.  I don't think they
mentioned any pejorative meaning.  Family was not listed that way, is it a
recently used meaning?

Family is fairly recent, and fairly in-group.
  
Subbing is a BDSM term for someone serving someone else in a sexual or
pseudosexual context.
  
I've heard "warped" suggested, in jest, for bis (based on the straight-bent
distinction).
  
Perjoratives can be used as in-group affectionate terms in nearly every
in-group: nigger, wop, kike, polack, etc... I've certainly heard all of those
being used between (respectively) African-Americans, Italians, Jews, and Poles
as "joking hostility".

BDSM?

I shall never think of substatute teaching (subbing) in the same way again.
 :-P

(BDSM = Bondage/Dominance/SadoMasochism, I belive)

Bondage/Discipline/SadoMasochism was my understanding.

Do we resolve this by:
       a)  an appeal to authority,
       b)  a popular vote, or
       c)  a carefully-documented experiment? 

Could somebody define 'bondage', 'dominance' and 'discipline' as used in the
above context?

BDSM: The three related things are Bondage and Discipline, Dominance and
Submission, and Sado-masochism.
  

Bondage and Discipline> Bondage involves using tethers, ropes, blindfolds,
gags, etc. Discipline involves spanking, whipping, etc. OR can involve
non-physical forms of discipline, such as denial of attention, etc.
  
Dominance and submission> Doms give orders. Subs follow them. =} Easy.
  
Sadomasochism> Pain, and pleasure. NOT pain to seriously injure.
  
All of the above being between consenting parties...
  
For more info, www.ironrose.com (over 18, please *rolls eyes*)

I must have been doing discipline and dominance until age 18 (the receiving
end, of course).

Many sexual kink/fetish/lifestyle choices are rooted in child and teen
expereinces. There's a method of treatment -- Trauma Re-enactment -- that
really isn't too different to what many BDSM folks do. In Trauma Re-enactment,
the client revisits the scene of a trauma and tries to play through it
constructively. Many -- if not most, if not all -- "cutters" (people who
self-mutilate for emotional release, NOT for sexual enjoymeny and NOT as a
suicide attempt) are caught up in some replaying emotional trauma and can't
get out of the mental loop and move forward. MPD (Multiple Personality
Disorder) may likewise be rooted in a personality getting stuck as the result
of some trauma or other (Tool's "jimmy", for instance: "What was it like to
see the face of your own stability suddenly look away, leaving you with the
dead and hopeless? 11 and she was gone, 11 was when we waved goodbye, 11 is
standing still, waiting for me to find my way back home.").

So one reason for BDSM choices is a need for a safe forum to work out control
issues, humiliation problms, sexual guilt, etc. Consider this: You've been
taught that it's wrong, as a female, to want sex. If you're tied down and
gagged, you've given up your choice, and your responsibility. Many people
who've been taught that wanting sex is wrong have rape fantasies -- goodness
knows I did, for a long time, and I stilll have mild ones from time to time.
Consider this: Potty training was a laborious task for you, and continued well
into your school years, and you were disgraced by your peers. Golden Showers
allows you to put the activity in a setting where you have control, where your
partner isn't ridiculing you -- or is DELIBERATELY ridiculing you. It's a way
of coping.

Then again, a lot of this stuff is just plain fun, so not everyone who's in
the lifestyle have this history of problems, and once people work through them
they don't necessarily leave.

Self-mutilation may also be the result of a genetic disorder.  Lesch-Nyhan
syndrome.  , X-linked recessive disorder (meaning it is on the X chromosome
so genetic males have a much higher chance of not having one good gene). 
Causes an enzyme deficiency which leads to accumulation of excess uric acid,
kidney stones, arthritis, gout, as well as nervous system problems including
self-mutiliation of hands and arms, usually by biting.  No cure, you can only
tie the person up.  Most die early.  We met someone whose adult son had it.
        I found this in a genetic textbook.  WOuld anyone like a summary of
what was known about different combinations of X and Y chromosomes and how
that affected phenotypic (expressed) sex (book is about 15 years old.)?
I could start a new item on genetics.
        Thanks very much for the brief summary of how people deal with
childhood trauma.  Not something I would have thought of.  Lots of childhood
behaviors get carried into adulthood, in some people more than others.
        I expect, as you say, that a lot of the above is mostly for fun, no
different from dressing up in various costumes, which give people the freedom
to act different parts.  I have seen some really funny costumes in catalogs.

<font shakes her head, and says in a generic mis-informed accent>
"...Boy, the things people do these days...." <and since the begining of
existance>  <laugh>

That may be, Keesan, but most cutters (including all the ones I know other
than myself) are female.

I know quite a few male cutters.  <shrug>

But then, aren't you younger than me? *ponders*
*shrugs*
I dunno the stats. I jus tknow the "cutter" web sites are oriented towards
women.

Does age really matter?  After all, Brighn, most of my friends are closer to
your age.

Different experiences, I guess.
Age does matter, though, in my experience. *shrug*

Why?

Why does age matter, in my experience?
I would presume it would be because, when thinking of the younger people I've
known, cutting habits tend to be more egalitarian, whereas among the older
people, they tend to be more female-based.
What sort of the question is that?
If you're asking for a hypothesis, I'm not a psychologist, and shouldn't give
one publicly.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss