I was talking with a female friend the other day.  It was a conversation 
full of sweeping generalizations, and at one point she said that men were 
more concerned with appearances than women.  Her evidence for this was 
that she often sees good looking women together with unattractive men, 
but rarely the other way around.

My response was that this is probably because women, as a whole, spend a 
lot more time on thir appearance than men do, and there are simply a lot 
more women who look good than men who look good.  So I think just the 
opposite - that it is *women* who are more concerned with appearances 
than men.

Anyone want to add to this generalization-fest?  :)

128 responses total.

For a part it's due to rolemodels.
Men are expecting to be the laughing stock if they
would introduce their less good looking girlfriend to them.
Certainly if he considers himself a hunk.
Women are easier in dismissing this prejudice and and appreciate
the character as it diserves.

From my experiences, if I had to generalize, I'd say it was the men
that are more focused on dating good looking women then more
average looking women, then the other way around [women dating
only "good" looking guys vs 'average' looking guys].  Though
I don['t like to generalize.  But look through the personals sometime--
In the men's ads, most of them feature physical attributes-of themselves
as well as physical attributes they are looking for, women do this
to some extent but not nearly as much as the men do...

Generally speaking, I think men tend to have a clearer picture in their heads
of what makes women "good looking", while women tend to take a look at the
sum of the parts on an individual basis.

 There are more un-attractive people around then there is beautiful. It is
my firm belief that face, hair, eyes, and all outward appearances are merely
eye-candy, or not. It is what is inside that counts. You can be a very ugly
person, and still have a heart of gold, or you can look like Vanna White and
have a heart like an icecube, small, cold and mean.
  I know this information first hand.

Sure, or you can be drop-dead gorgreous and have a heart of gold. 
Most of us, though, fall somewhere in the middle.  Ouir hearts are
modertaely warm if a bit flawed and our looks are pleasant, if not
awe inspiring.  Besides, there is no face lovelier than the face
of a loved one.

Yeah know, I must be really weird or something, but I think it would be
pure hell to live with someone who was mostly sweet, kind, nurturing, hugs
& kisses, and loving all the time.  I'd go into a hyperglycemic coma on
day two.  I enjoy being around real people, with real and variable
emotions, who speak their mind, and aren't afraid to engage their upper
brain and share honest words even when this means their comments won't
earn them popularity awards. 

And nice buns won't hurt the cause. ;-)

Goes without saying.
But it is not the point.
Living with a basterd/bitch can be hell.
Living with a sweet to the core person makes your teeth fall out.
Neither sais a thing about appearances.
It's the superficial that is being forced upon us by the near perfect
picture the media thrust down our throats.

Why pay attention to media/  You know it is just hype...so you use your brain
and walk away...I agree with chelsea...give me real people, with all their
attributes and flaws, who speak their mind.  Besides, a good argument is quite
stimulating...whether among friends or lovers.

i find that i can relate/interact best with people who
are <well, 'broken' isnt quite the word>..who have not
led exactly a charmed life.  i admire the character of
someone who can go on living even though they have experienced
great anguish of some kind or other.
for some reason, it is hard for me to relate to
someone who hasnt had to struggle with tough issues. granted, they
could be very nice people, but i just cant "connect" with them.

We call them "Sunday-children", and personally I think they're rather boring.
But, there are friends among mine that qualify.
Though, if I look through my friends, most of them are people as you
describe them, Iggy.
I agree, but I guess, it is a result of the known
"birds of a feather syndrome".

I find a good argument far from stimulating, I'm afraid.  I may come closer
to the "hypogycemic shock inducer".  *sigh*  I speak my mind just fine...
until someone cuts me off or gets sharp with me.  Then I find it extremely
difficult to get the less pleasant things out ever again.  It's definitely
a flaw -- but one I can see the roots of and am working on.

Part of the problem is that I just shrivel and dry up when the conversation
gets too heated.  My mind blanks and I have trouble breathing.  Sort of a
panic attack, I guess.  That makes people who like to solve problems loudly
very hard for me to be around.

I think appearences mimic behavior, if there is some gorgeous guy or gal,
watch the behavior of their friends. If someone is spending alot of time
getting ready it means there trying to present an image. If you look at a
group of people yo get alot more than from one individual if a guy is hanging
out with atractive Women and looks like a slob it means he's comfortable with
his image, a good looking women with a group of sloby guys means uncofortable
image vice versa same thing. But generalization sucks untill you meet the
individual and talk to them for a couple hours alone it is hard to understand
them you good be dead wrong. I met a guy who was a complete neat freak,
obsesed with image, and he was rude. I met a slob with a great body who a
complete moron, and rude. I met a great guy who was a slob looked like he just
woke up looked grumpy, and really was a nice guy who was completely organized
all the time. It really depends on how much time you spend watching people
befor you get to talk to them.

Looks are a sensitive issue... there are still things we cannot change. I am
not toally happy wuith my nose but I am not going to drop $6,000 on a anose
job. And while that girl may be gorgeous, that may not always be the case.
Let's hope the guy  will still accept her if she gains weight or is in a
disfiguring accident.

It is the flaws in human appearance that defines real beauty dear
bees.
Leave your nose as it is, it becomes you (and that without seeing)

<applauds>

I don't know of any women (and few men) who aren't at least a little
annoyed with some aspect of their appearance.  That's sad -- because on
the whole, I think people are very beautiful.  

I think that point of view has been especially strengthened by my contacts
with the naturists/nudist commuity and my contacts with the body image
acceptance movement.  That and my Mum used to say "The most beautiful face
is the one you love."  As a kid I used to play a game using that adage.  I'd
site in a crowded place and pick a person at random and ask myself:
"If I loved you, what would you look like,..?"  Odd how many very plain
or even "ugly" people came to seem very pleasant to the eyes indeed -- and
how many"beautiful" people came to seem interchangable.

Knowing all this, of course, only helps a little on the days I feel like the
creature from the Black Lagoon.  <grin>

Like I said... not gonna get my nose fixed. Though I would definitely get my
thighs lipsuctioned if it were a 100% safe procedure. :) Nothing charming
about thigh fat.

Say what???  Round dumpling thighs are extremely sexy!  (Ever seen a 
page out of Vogue or Elle on a garage mechanic's wall???)

you don't see celluliter thighs on garage mechanics walls, but you do see many
store bought breasts...er cellulite.

Yeah, but they're cheating. Cilicone breasts.
Seen that boxer from Tonga at the olympics?
He said big men and women are considered examples of real beauty
overthere (he himself weighed about 140 kilograms).
Now, I won't say everybody should stop dieting and emigrate
to Tonga.
But I guess this image of slimness for women and muscle boundness for
men has been thrust upon us by the media.
Say for yourself, Marilyn Monroe wasn't really that slender.

<high fives clees>
The women who were considered "sexy" have become thinner and thinner as the
media keeps pumping out images of what they consider "true beauty".  Look at
statues of the ancient Greek women.  They resembled today's average female...a
size 14.  In fact, I was watching a special on baroque dancers from the
twenties and thirties, and not a single one didn't have a pudgy section.  I
think the thinnest woman was about a size eight.  

I agree with your Marilyn Monroe point.  She was beautiful, sexy, charming,
and had slightly chunky thighs.  =)

Not only that, but media are forming the human picture into soemsort

of grotesque charicaturecaricature: 
the women lean and thin with very big breasts (back problems)
the men like chippendales (with the potency problems due to steroidfeeding)

Booooooring!

It doesn't matter how big or small you are; it's your health that matters.
As soon as Kate Moss keeps up with me on a cross-country hike, we'll talk.

<giggle>  She's right...

Health, hmmmm.
Now, there is a point...being a smoker and a person that likes
his occassional beer.

Health is important, of course, but to me grooming and a sense of style are
even more important.  I prefer that the people I love be healthy -- but that
isn't always possible.  But good grooming (a thorough, soapy shower once a
day, a nicely chosen, clean, well pressed wardrobe ...those are more under
the individual's control than health or size, so I tend to be pickier about
them.)  Now mind you, I said nicely chosen -- not "fashionable" or expensive.
If jeans and a shirt are what you can afford, so be it.  But make sure they're
clean, in good repair, and in a cut and colour that compliments your body type
and colouring.  (Besides, jeans are very expensive -- usually more so than
a nicer looking pair of trousers would have been.)

You press your jeans???
So, correct me if I'm wrong but,
you won't date a man that wears worn down boots, torn jeans, a goattee,
dreadlocks with piercing all over the place?
O.k., here I am:
Pressing my clothes is not my habit, but they are clean and almost
never torn (but I like to wear my clothes to
the full extent oftheir lifwetime).
I am a jeans man, otoh I like to wear a jacket on top of it (rather
no tie, but a bolo tie, if any), for the rest t-shirts, shirts
and soldier's boots. That's how I go to work and howI date, for
that's the way I am.
Personal hygiene is no tpic of discussion.
Does this apply to the l o o k s)
(appearances, appearances, appearances).
Oh, I forgot, underneath the wrapping is me, and the most important
part of me as a human being.

Again, you're right.  
Dating?  I thought you were married...?  Maybe I have you and sidhe confused
again.
/sigh

I don't press my jeans, no, because I won't wear jeans.  (I find them
extremely uncomfortable.)  <grin>  

And in my experience the soapy shower is indeed a point to be brought up. 
I've dated far too many men who think that soap is for "special occasions"
like weddings and first dates.  ;)  My standards have changed over the years.

The human is, of course, the important part.  But the wrapping says a fair
amount about the human underneath.  The specific "look" matters a lot less
to me than a clean start and enough attention to appearance to show some self
esteem.  Dreadlocks are cool!  I love a beard!  I don't have a problem with
torn jeans if they are clean and well fitting and look intentional.  (That
is, are appropriate to the "costume" or occasion.)

What I do have a problem with is the same t-shirt and the same jeans day after
day with washing seldom.  With clothes that are ill-fitting and rumpled.  With
dank, oily hair and a scent that says "I bathe once a month whether I really
need to or not."

Of course, in all my visits to Europe I never encountered that look once
except on my (European born) husband.

As to piercings all ovr the place, I don't dislike it so much as I'm simply
too old to understand it.  I suspect that had it been the "look" of my youth,
I'd be rather fond of it.  (What I miss are bell bottom trousers.  <g>)

Heh.  Often I think I'm too old to understand the piercing thing.

The latest (cutting edge?) body art thingie involves making a fine
incision through the scalp and slipping in small disks which have
screw-like projections which come through the scalp and accept
various sized screw-on spikes.  The end look is a shaved head with
a metal spike mohawk.

That ought to keep grandma from patting you on the head ever again.

Now *there's* the way to impress 'em on that job interview!

This response has been erased.

Just getting the things implanted sounds really painful.

Re #29:  Misti, you say that clothes are a reflection of self-esteem, and
that that's important to you.  May I ask, why is it important that someone
hav high self-esteem to be attractive to you?  (I realize that may be an
impossible question to answer, since what attracts people is not a rational
thing.  But if you'd give it a stab, I'd appreciate it, because this I think
is a very big difference between men and women in our culture.  Like I said
a while ago in another item, it seems to me that, stereotypically anyway,
women are attracted to men who are strong in the same way that men are
attracted to women that are beautiful.  I think both stereotypes are flawed
(certainly appearances have never mattered a whole lot to me), but I imagine
they contain grains of truth.  So I'd like to understand what it is about
strength in men that women find attractive.

I heard that also about this spiking business.
Another one I saw on t.v. was burning symbols into the
skin.
Could this kind of decadency be a symptom of the ending of a
millenium?
THey've certainly lost me, there.
(And I thought an earring was cool; but that was in the 80s)

Re 35#:
For myself I like strong, independent women (and I guess that's why
I'm still single. Boy! Are they hard to find! Even in the
Netherlands.)
Well, they can be, but when things come down to it, they still
want a real man (I think I've said this once before, somewhere),
and I am not.
<sigh and pout, and whatever show my distress)

<hug clees>

Aruba -- generally, when a person has high self-esteem, they are more
talkative, open, and have an air that says, "Nothing bothers me".  They glow,
more or less.  Before I accepted who I am and what I look like, I never had
a date...hardly.  Now, if I flirt with someone, they generally flirt back,
and two months ago I caught myself saying, "I don't know if I want to go out
with X or Y on Saturday".  I used to HATE girls like that.  =)  I still hate
it.  ANYWAY, men with high self-esteem (but not snobs) are appealing to me
because it shows confidence and optimism.

Why is confidence attractive?

Confidence is often an indicator that someone is comfortable with
themselves and people who are comfortable with themselves are often far
less needy than those who aren't. 

And when you get involved with a needy person, well, mostly you'll be more
of a mother (or father) than a partner.  Some folks become magnets for
just this kind of a relationship.  Over and over and over - they attract 
needy people.  People who need others to bolster their self-image.

For awhile it works.  But I'd suspect such a relationship would run
into serious problems after the novelty wore off and you realized, once
again, that where there is zero confidence the needs just keep on comin'.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss