Unless  I have missed it, there's little dialogue here on abortion rights.
Anti-choice movement is stronger than ever, and there is a whole generation
now that doesn't remember life before Roe v. Wade (myself included, I was born
in 1972, one year before the decision came down). For those of us who are
pro-choice, how do we keep our right to motherhood by choice and not chance?
Also, if you happen to be pro-life, your opinions are welcome also.

41 responses total.

There's only one way I know.  That is to elect politicians who believe as you
do on this issue.  It boggles my mind that most people in America believe in
a woman's right to choose, yet we have elected so many officials who believe
otherwise. .

True Audrey... thing is, a lot of people just don't bother to find out if the
person up for election is pro-choice. I guess many people assume that if the
candidate is a woman, she must be pro-choice, which is not always the case.
It amazes me that people like Orrin Hatch are still in office... this is a
man who said AIDS patients bring thir disease onto themselves by engaging in
"sick, perverted" behavior. Ughh.

i think there isnt much discussion because we are
pretty weary of telling and hearing the same arguments.

for the record, i'm pro-choice.

I remember the days before Roe v. Wade.  An acquaintance of mine
(a friends older sister, we were in HS at the time and she was 17 or 
18) employed the coathanger method, for lack of legal alternatives.
She was one of the lucky ones; she lived to tell about it.  But she'll 
never have children.

I find it upsetting that the same people wholobby against abortion
rights are those who also oppose teaching safe sex to youth.  

As I get older, and see more early sonograms of my own pregnancies, I
am troubled by abortion as aform of birth control.  While I firmly 
believe in a woman's legal right to choose, I think society 
should be working toward minimizing the need to make that choice
though active sex education and safe sex & birth control classes.

As a human, I feel a great respect for the potential of human life.
I have seen my own 7-week fetuses with hearts beating; and when I have
miscarried I have felt sadness at the loss of potential.  Shouldn't we
be able to reconcile a legal right with the acknowledgement that this
is *not* a good solution and should, when possible, be avoided?

That's how I feel simcha. I've never had a situation where I'ev had to make
such a huge choice. I hope I never do. I guess alot of people look abortion
as an easy way out, when it's hardly easy. The pro-life movement, which is
said to be based on love and acceptance, has an edge of spite to it. A friend
of a firend who had an abortion would cry whenever she saw a bumper sticker
along the lines of "Pro-choice, that's a lie, babies don't choose to die."
Pretty hateful if you ask me.

And it's funny, the peole who are so against sex ed in schools, who insist
it be taught at home, are usually the ones who don't tell their kids anything
at all. 

This response has been erased.

A child has a moral right to access accurate information regarding the
body and sexual reproduction.  When a parent withholds this critical
information it's nothing but a form of child abuse.  For some children
their only real source of contact with the facts is in a school classroom. 
So when red-neck School Boards start censoring the curriculum to only
allow "don't do it" type content...  Well, I would like to see them sued
on the basis of child abuse but I don't think it's going to happen any
time this political climate. 

        I don't like the terms "pro-life" or "anti-choice", or
what have you.  Both sides have a right to opinions.  
        For starters, I don't support abortion.  I don't support
the so-called "Right to Life" movement.  Anyone who kills a doctor
because they perform abortions is sick and wrong.  So is the movement
to which they belong.  Blocking clinics isn't 100 percent mentally
all there, either.
        I am 'pro-choice' when it comes to teaching kids about sex,
and all the other stuff that goes with it.  I'd support
public education if the damned redneck senators would stop saying
it's immoral to talk about sperm and the vagina in school.
Hell, even in private school (Catholic) we learned about it.
I was fortunate to have great parents who were more than happy
to talk about sex with me and answer my questions.      

        The whole issue of abortion is illogical to begin with.
Why is it a "pro-choice" when the choice has been made already?
Sex, by itself, is reproduction.  It's not a way to blow off
steam on a Saturday night.  Not a post-prom ritual that must
be obeyed.    It's reproduction at base level.
        Animals reproduce for that purpose.  They have a drive, they
go for it.  As humans, we're also animals.  But, we have a bit of
brain power.  We should be able to say "Hey, if I do this, I might
get pregnant.  Do we want to risk it, or should we say 'Hey,
no sweat.  I can get an abortion?'"  We shouldn't be so ignorant
as to claim "it was a mistake" as an excuse.  If life were so easy
as to wipe out all of our mistakes, we wouldn't need to be here.
        Debate #2 : Is it life at conception?  Well, that's tough.
It's not life as we know it (to quote Mr. Spock), but it's something.
It's not a giraffe or a zebra.  It's not a plant.  It's something.
To deny that something is growing and will, if all goes well, in nine
months, be a little person is wrong.  It's plain wrong.  It's not a topic
for debate.  It's not relative.  It's a fact.  If life begins only
at the moment of birth, we need to define what goes on during those
nine months in the womb?  It's amazing how a mother-to-be can
care for her pre-born child so delicatly, but if the pre-born isn't
"planned for", the mother-to-be aborts and that's that.  So, for anyone
who thinks the pre-born is like a tumor and, like a tumor, can
be removed at will, I'll give you that.  I've never known a tumor which
in nine months could cry or do #2 in its pants.  

        Flaws in logic : What about people who don't know what's going on?
Uneducated teens who are pressured?  Rape?  Incest?  

        What can we say?  That we have to force these people to have
a baby because they honestly had no control over the situation?
We're all intelligent.  Can you imagine not knowing what sex was?
Having someone tell you it's okay, nothing will happen?  And you honestly
didn't know what would happen?  Bingo!  baby time!  Do we punish
these innocents?  We can't.  
        Incest?  Science shows us what happens to children born from
incest.  I can understand aborting.
        Rape?  YEs, I can support aborting.  I don't buy the "it'll turn
out to be a bastard rapist child!" argument I've heard before. 
        The-too-innocent-to-be-truly-damned?  14 year old girls who
don't truly know any better?  It's hard to say.  Some know better,
but pretend they don't, and abort on the grounds they were
coerced or fooled.  Double-eged sword.  I won't touch this one.
        Accidental pregnancies?  Hey, even Nancy said "Just say no!"
        If you can't avoid having sex, you don't have an excuse - 
        you have an impulse-control problem.

        I'm glad our ancient ancestors didn't have abortion.  God knows
how many of us wouldn't ge here if they did.  Picture your life
without someone who is very close to you.  Picture your absence of life!
Now, that's the true horror.

I told a friend I was expecting my fourth, and he, a man in his 50s
with 3 kids chuckled and like so many others said "Better you than 
me!"  Then he went on to tell me he was the youngest of 9 kids.  He
once asked his mother why she had so many kids and she told him she
never knew there was any way *not* to.  He said, as an adult, he 
always got a kick out of being the product of ignorance!

Another friend once told me why she got married and had her first 
child at 18:  She was pregnant when she got married...she didn't know
you could get pregnant if the man didn't enter the woman, and 
abortion was illegal then.

Yet another story...another woman I know got pregnant cuz her doctor
didn't mention that her diaphragm's fit depended on her weight 
remaining stable.  Twenty pounds later...

Yes, there are occasional "excuses"...and teens have a notoriously
bad time with controlling impulses.

On the other hand, I have two friends who used abortion as birth
control:  they saw themselves as "nice girls" who wouldn't "really"
have sex, and ended up with 4 abortions each before they married.

As Dr. Seuss said, "If you never were born, then you'd be a wasn't!"
But the same goes for birth control.
/

This response has been erased.

Hmmm...  I don't think anyone enjoys the "where do babies come from" talk, and
so when it's overwith they're not anxious to do it again.  I don't know,
though - I'm not sure parents are the best place to get one's sex education
from.  Too many people find it too uncomfortable.

...which is why we have a lot of "how did I get pregnant?" questions.


I just cannot understand a parent who is "too busy" or too embarassed
to answer question from their children pertaining to sex.
Gee, is it THAT taboo?  Were the parents brought up in such
a strict household that the mention of the word got them
20 lashes with a broomstick?  Sex ain't dirty.

And, when kids are denied the proper sexual education via parents or the
school system, we have word-of-mouth from peers who are usually just
as misinformed, or have their own theories.

"You can't get pregnant the first time!"
"You can only get pregnant if you're on yor period!"

Well, we see where it all comes from.  Parents don't want the
schools teaching sex education.  Parents don't want to talk about
sex with their children.  Hmm....

re #12:  Yes, in many homes sex *is* dirty.  The thought, the 
deed, the discussion.  Remember, these are the homes that place
a real emphaasis on original sin, and Adam's fall.  

My favorite story (this was in the 70s) was from a guidance counselor
who was one of my mom's best friends.  She saw one of her students
in the clinic, complaining of appendicitis.  The girl was about to
give birth...didn't know she was pregnant, didn't know how babies 
were made, inner city kid who was about 13 or 14 at the time.
Just had her period once or twice, thought she was irregular, 
getting fat from lots of fries & ice cream & wor big sizes, not
maternity clothes...

My other favorite stories are the girls who are told the lies
about if you sit on a boy's lap you can get pregnant...so she
never sits on his lap, and can't figure out how she got pregnant.

And the sad and easy to imagine ones like planned parenthood
fit her for a diaphragm (more popular pre-AIDS) but neglected to tell
her that her weight affected the fit, and if she put on 10-20 lbs 
it might not work...

This response has been erased.

        These stories are funny, but when you think about
the long-term effects and the others who think the same things,
the humor wears off.

This response has been erased.

I remembered seeing #14 on a t.v. show once; an eleven-year-old girl
was crying and when her housekeeper asked why, she said she was pregnant
because she had kissed a boy and she thought that was what "making love"
was.  But she also had no mother and fathers don't tend to tell their
daughters about sex and related topics.  I know mine has never even said
the word in my presence.

I'm male, and my father has had two sexual conversations with me my whole
life, both based on my mother's goading.  They were both short.  During one,
he told my brother and I that now that we were getting to be preteens (John
was 11 or 12, I think, making me 8 or 9), we were changing, and our penises
would get hard and we'd have a really nice dream and wake up with crusty 
underwear and that was normal and we shouldn't worry about it.  The second
was even shorter.  It was several years later, and amounted to:  "I know
you know what it's all about, so I won't tell you, but you better not while
you're living in my house and if you do you better as hell us one of them,
and they're in the bathroom drawer."
In short, A.B., some fathers just plain don't talk about sex, it isn't
only a daughter thing (although I think fathers are disinclined to talk
to daughters even mor than to sons...)...
Thing is, John and I *did* know all about it, and *did* know what he meant
by "them"...  
Oh, did I mention, my father has a master's degree, so he can't claim 
ignorance and poor education.  *sigh*
IF that's what *he* calls sex ed, I'm frightened as to what other kids
are getting.

I never got the talk at all. I only know of two people who did get "the talk"
growing up. And I'm only 23, growing up in 70s and 80s, not 50s.

This response has been erased.

*shrug*  Valerie (my Valerie, not Popcorn) got "the Talk" from her mother.
It was a fairly decent talk, from what I've heard.  I've already said I
never got the Talk (at least not very good).  Somehow, I figured out nearly
all I needed or wanted to know through self-informing and sorting through
the bullshit on the street, and Valerie didn't figure out much at all...
For instance, I knew everybody masturbated by the time I was 13 or 14, but
Valerie didn't even know it existed until the two of us talked about it
when she was, oh, 17 or so.  But it was a difference between Protestant 
guilt and Catholic obliviousness.  Her mother had taught her about inter-
course, and that's about it.  Her mother practiced monogamous heterosexual
sex (more than intercourse, but still what's usually termed "vanilla" sex),
so Valerie didn't know about masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, homosexuality,
BDSM, etc. etc.  I on the other hand somehow picked up the information on
all of these things but b/c of my father's attitudes towards sex got filled
with an unbearable guilt at desiring anything other than intercourse.  
Valerie got over her obliviousness fairly quickly... when she learned about
something, it was an "Oh, cool, that's interesting too".  I'm still 
getting over my guilt, even though I haven't been a Protestant for about
a decade... *sigh*

        Well, hell, I got "the talk", but it wasn't a 
"them approaching me" symdrome.  I asked a shitload of questions
when I was young.  And I kept on asking.  And asking.  And asking.
Mom answered all of them, and I didn't get any brush-offs.
As a result, I feel very educated (after doing extensive sexual
education research in college towards my degree), sexually liberal
(I really don't care who does what, as long as I'm not being forced
to do something...odd...with a cow), and open-minded.
        The greatest thing, though, is dammit, my mom didn't get
anything wrong!  

Okay, I'll change the topic slightly.  I am ready to talk to my 
10-year old daughter and I know she is ready to hear it, cuz I
am getting questions like "When did you get your period" and "What's
a hicky?"  I have a really good book for kids (I think it's good
cuz it goes beyond the simple reproduction into all the sensitive stuff
like masturbation, homosexuality, etc.)

What should I tell her that is commonly ignored?  I don't want 
to hand her a book...we talk frankly and I'd lilke to keep
it that way.  The bookk is something I plan to give her afterwards.

One thing that i think is commonly ignored when parents talk to their children
about reproductive biology and sexuality is the emotional aspect of every
part.  Even something as biological as getting yur period is filled with
emotional reactions and responses.  It is helpful to talk about some of the
possible emotional responses to the upcoming event.  (e.g. fears, possible
mood swings, concerns about "exposure", excitement and or nervousness knowing
one is now capable of having a baby, etc.)

Another thing that I believe is commonly ignored is to pace the amount of
information provided to the feedback you get from your child.  In other words,
discuss what she indicates she wants to hear about and is ready to deal with
developmentally, and then stop leaving the door open for any discussion at
any time she (or he) wants to ask.

On the humorous side, no matter how open you are, or how much you discuss,
you will probably forget something (which will be pointed out to you at a
later date.)  My husband and I for example, forgot to tell our daughters about
"wet dreams".  They took pains to let us know that we didn't know everything.

I think you can safely wait a few years to tell her about the discomfort of
sleeping in the "wet spot." (said with a smile)

This response has been erased.

Another book that was a helpful adjunct to "discussions" was.  ."What's
Happening to me?"  or something like that.  This is where our girls learned
about wet dreams (which we had forgotten to tell them about-no longer being
a big issue in our married lives.)

I still have my old college copy of our bodies...and it's okay but to
er, too technical really for my daughter.  Plus, it seemed really
dated.  Maybe it's time to invest in a new copy.

Interesting you mentioned feelings about "simple" stuff like getting
your period.  I remember my mom didn't bother teaching me about
tampons immediately, so my first few periods I used a pad & it was 
summer...co-ed camp, and me on the sidelines wrapped in a towel for
swimming.  I was humiliated...everyone knew why I wasn't swimming.
I decided long ago not to make my daughter do that routine!

My mom also played down the cramps business on the theory of if
you don't make an issue and anticipate pain, it won't be so bad.
My cramps, til I got on the pill, were awful.  (Thanks to Dad's
medical license, tho', I had a lifetime supply of Darvon.)

This is getting to be a long post, but here's a funny:  My kids
came home from the last day of school telling jokes.  The 5th
grader alread had told her little brother the jokes (he's 7 & 2nd grade)
and told us at dinner.  Well it was the one about th headlights,
the garage, and the limo.  Anybody know it?   My husband
did, and broke out in such  laughter at such an old joke being 
recycled (he had heard it at around the same age the tears were running
down his face.  I did tell the kids sthat I didn't want to hear more
jokes about bodily functions and body parts while we were eating,
and let it drop.

The next nnight we took my mother in law (aged 78) and her boyfriend 
(yup!) out to dinner.  Service was awful...we waited an hour for the
food.  While we're waiting and my hubby and I are chatting, my son
is talking to the 70-ish boyfriend.  All of a sudden I hear "...
headlights...limo...pulling into the garage!"  When we told the little
kid it wasn't appropriate he said, "But there's no food on the table,
we're not eating yet!"

Hmm...he'll need a full explanation soon, too!

Should the fact that my 10-year-old hasn't directly questioned
me about how the baby got in my tummy concern me?

This response has been erased.

no, they don't differ.  My husband and I've always answered every 
question honestly and directly, until we see their little eyes
glaze over.  I've put off some of the discussion cuz I can't
gen her alone w/out one of the other kids tagging along & butting in.
^^t^^
I need to make an appt for one of us to take the other 2 out!  

<g> I know the feeling.  One of my cousins has started dating and I
want to make sure he knows all that he should because his family is so
big I'm afraid his parents haven't had the time to talk with him.  But
I feel uncomfortable when the younger ones are around.  I'm afraid if
I say something in front of them, they'll say it in front of someone
else and I'll get a lecture from my uncle and aunt.

It's a ticklish one.  Can you take him out for an icecream or a "poprun" at
a family gathering?  I usually find that works...

Yes but if I try to take one of them somewhere, the other five want to
come too.  I thought I found a solution when I invited him to spend a
few days with me up at school, but his parents think he's too young to
be interested in college.  I don't, considering he already knows what
SAT's are and has a vague idea of where he wants to go to college.  But
if they don't let him come visit me, I can't do anything about that.
And this is my last year of college too :( last semester even.

What is a "poprun"?

Where you run out and get everyone's beverage of choice ... and since that
usually consists of n+1, where n is the number of people present, extra hands
are useful.

This response has been erased.

Only n+1?    Around here it's more like 2n-1 for every n people.
Why do so many people have two favorite things?
Isn't that a contradiction?

My parents did not buy soda.  Nor talk to us about sex.  They left a library
book around once.  So did the college, freshman year (each of us found one
in the mailbox, seems like a clever idea.  THis was not a library book, but
ours to keep).
Why did this item suddenly show up as new, along with 6 others?

Looks like the rseps and iseps got reversed.
Somebody needs to parse the chmod, then grep
all the fingers.

ahh, md, come on, it'll give us a chance to argue! :) :)

(Oh yeah, parse the chmod and grep the fingers.  Why didn't I think of
that?...)   <mutters>

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss