In his book, "Men Are From Mars, Women Are Fron Venus", John Gray says,
"A woman under stress is not immediately concerned with finding solutions
to her problems but rather seeks relief by expressing herself and being
understood."  And "Just as a man is fulfilled through working out the
intricate details of solving problems, a woman is fulfilled through talking
about the details of her problems." 

Recognizing the pitfalls of generalizations, how do you feel about these
statements, and do they apply to you?

33 responses total.

 do you actually know what the conditions on Venus are???

Hell is a better place compared to Venus.

Hmm... according to this theory, I must be a woman.  Excuse me a moment...


Nope.  It doesn't hold any water in my book.

Of course the stereotypical man has no emotions and is only challenged by 
technical details of his work, while the stereotypical female is all emotions
and must be given extensive and simplistic instruction to use so much as a
toaster.....

These are interesting statements that do not appear to apply to me.  If a 
problem has no accessible solution, I find that putting it into words
sometimes provides some relief -- but certainly not fulfilment.  It merely
turns a devil I don't know into one that I do, so to speak.

   I think they are best looked at as "statistics" of a large population
of people.  Perhaps they are right.  I can see people of each sex that
fill either model, myself.  So I don't think these are hard and fast.
   Reading the item text a second time just now, it seems that if you
look negatively at it, women are said to be more concerned with getting
others to know about the problem, rather than figuring out the solution.
Feels like a distinct streak of trying to put women down.

Gray's basic thesis is that men and women have different styles, methods and
techniques of communicating and if one doesnt understand the differences,
communications are misread or misunderstood.  For example, in response to
hearing about a problem, he says that men "mistakenly offer solutions and
invalidate feelings, while women offer unsolicited advice and direction."  
"Martians tend to pull away and silently think about what's bothering them,
Venusiams feel an instinctive need to talk about what's bothering them."
Again, this is a generalization, but I will say that many communications
problems between couples occur because a woman will express out loud a
concern or porblem she has to her mate, and instead of relecting back the
concern he hears and perhaps shares, he tends to tell her how to solve the
problem.  He then, doesnt understand why she gets angry and she feels
demeaned (perhaps too strong a term) because he doesnt seem to believe she
has the capability to work it out herself.  Or, more often, because the 
solution he offers is one she is not comfortable with.   

Also, Steve, after reading the book, I dont believe Gray is putting either sex
down.  You can easily get that impression from the quote I took out of total
context, and I can see where you would get that opinion.  He is advocating for
an understanding of different communication styles.  I agree that
communications styles cause many misunderstandings, but I wonder if they are as
gender specific as he seems to believe.

   I should put it on my list of books to read.  Anything that advocates
understanding different ways of doing things sounds potentially good to me.

My experiences bear out this author's statements to a large
degree.  I have to keep reminding my SO that I *don't* want
him to up and solve my problems when I'm upset, and that I
simply want him to listen, nod his head, and be sympathetic
for awhile.  I can usually figure out solutions for myself
when I'm ready for them.

I think my ex-wife often wanted me to listen instead of offering
a solution. Other women I have known also tended to want an ear,
not advice. But that is a generalization.

When I talk to a friend about a problem, I often want to just
talk about it, not necessarily solve it right then. So I think
this often crosses gender lines.

The point is to be aware that someone may want either one and
not to immediately zero in on problem-solving, which many of us
tend to do.

I dunno, while I always like to think someone is listening, I'll take 
solutions pretty much anywhere I can find them.

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I agree that sometime people just want someone to listen and don't want
advice or solutions.  I always found that strange - if there is a problem,
I naturally want to solve it.

That's the point, exactly, Jon "You" want to solve it.  You want to feel and
know that others believe you can solve it.  If someone is often or frequently
solving your problems for you, it can lead one to believe they are not
perceived of as competent to solve their own problems. 

Valerie. .solutions are an end product, advice can be a process.  By, the way,
I was quoting from Gray's book.  Thats not my statement but his.

Apparently I'm a Venusian.  I've gotten alot of milage out of the simple
statement: "I don't want you to fix it for me.  Please just listen and
let me talk it out."  While many "martian" types have found this a strange
request the first time, none have ever been unable to do so or even
unwilling.  It's saved me countless games of "Yeah, but" over the years.

re #13: The difference between solutions and advice is just semantics.
I may offer solutions, but in reality they are only advice because it
is still up to the recipient to either accept them or not.  Whenever I
go to soemone for advice, I like them to be as specific as possible
when suggesting solutions to my problem.

I think it's a matter of self-esteem.  Those with low self-esteem will
think, "He's trying to solve my problems for me."  Those with higher
self-esteem will think, "He's trying to give me alternative solutions
to my problem. If I don't like them, I can always do something else."

In some cases it has less to do with self-esteem than with communication style.
When advice/solutions are couches as you could xxx or xxxx, it's easy
enough to see it as advice.  But when it's couched as what you have to do is
xxx or why don't you xxx, that can be harder to think of as advice to take
or leave since once is so "authoritative" and the other seems to demand
and answer.

Sometimes it's not just self-esteem.  When I first got involved in UNIX
conferencing, I didn't know squat about any of this computer stuff - not
even any DOS or hardware background.  I was overwhelmed by people (mostly
male, but that was the environment back then) who wanted to do things FOR
me, instead of teaching me how to do them myself.  I still run into that
attitude all the time.  Depending on what I'm trying to do, it can be very
frustrating.

I agree with Dan about semantics.  When I say "solve it" thiis venus speak
for I want to see it solved.  It's very rare that anyone else can actually
solve a personal problem for someone else.

I admit to being guilty as charged under #0.  I am much more of a problem
solver than a comforter.  In fact, I ran into a problem with this when I
applied to work at Ozone House (for those who don't know, a place that
offers counseling, shelter and crisis intervention for teens).  I ended up
giving a terrible interview, because I was focussed on providing solutions
to the hypothetical problems they posed me, rather than concentrating on
extending warmth and caring.

And yet, havin said that, I think the communication gap goes both ways.  If
a person comes to me and wants to cry on my shoulder, but doesn't tell me
that that is what they want, then I'm apt to go into answer-mode, and it
might seem that I'm being cold.  If reminded though, I can be closer to the
ideal of what such a person might seek, though I don't think I'm capable of
completely turning off the part of me that says, "Oh God, just get over it
and do something or don't bitch."  Obviously, there are times when this in
completely inappropriate, such as when the problem has no obvious solution,
or when the person in question has specifically come to me for comfort, but
it's not something I do, so I hve some trouble getting into the head of
those who do.

That's such an important aspect of "accurate" communication style. .making
sure you are able to ask the person with whom you are communicating for
what you need and want.  So often people expect others to mind read and then
get angry or hurt when their significant other doesn't give them what they
need. Knowing that you tend to respond to others in a problem solving mode is
important and when you believe you have not been appreciated or even
understaood, refer back to that knowledge.  Then you are likely to be able to
express this tendency and ask if there is another response or response style
that would be more helpful at this particular moment.  Did you ever reconnect
with Ozone House Chris?  Actually, I thought I heard it closed down, but I may
be wrong.

This response has been erased.

<grin> Point to Valerie, but in my case it is of course true.  <bigger grin>
As to Ozone House, I didn't ever reconnect with them.  At the time my poor
little ego was sore, and after I grew up and got over it, I was in the midst
of other things.  I don't know whether Ozone House still exists.

I've read Mr. Gray's book now, which I hadn't when this first started.
(It turned up on the new-book shelves in the Milan Public Library just
before Christmas)  It's quite interesting, and some of it describes
my experience very well.  I seem to be a quasi-Venusian (visiting
from Luna, perhaps) married to a Martian who doesn't ever want to
come out of his cave.
        If someone offers me a problem, I don't necessarily want to
solve it *for* him/her.  The ideal is for both parties to grow in 
problem-solving.  Sometimes the problem is not something that lends 
itself to math-type "solutions", but in such cases offering comfort or
encouragement can at least help with the meta-problems that caused 
the problem to be brought to me in the first place.  I don't think of
myself as "wallowing in emotions", I reserve that for my own problems
(which I prefer to keep private).

yeah, Ozone House is still around.

Make that *almost* everyone thinks of themselves as a problem solver.
I freely admit that I'm mostly an emotional, though I can be linear
if pressed.

(I'd think if you were pressed hard enough, you'd become planar.
(sorry, couldn't resist))

I like to think of myself as three- (and maybe more) dimensional.  :)

No, John, mta would become a flatlander if sufficiently pressed.  
It's *slicing* where planaria are involved...

Hmm, you must've gone to a different math school than I did.  However,
this is drift (which is all my fault).

This response has been erased.

My problems *are* my emotions.  I do want to talk about them in intricate
detail, and I do want comforting for them, but (a) most women I've found 
are unwilling to comfort me to the degree that I'd like (the person who
lets me cry on them the most, after my wife, is another male) and (b) I'm
uncomfortable asking for comfort because I've been trained to not show
my emotions (by my society).  Then again, I do have an unusually high number
of emotional problems.  At any rate, Gray's repetition of what I see as 
primarily social values in the form of sweeping generalizations hurt
from the standpoint that it feels like an invalidation of *my* feelings
(not me personally, of course, but of any male who doesn't behave in
that fashion).  Too often I have had that stuff thrown back at me ("You're
a male... you wouldn't understand").

I dont think that John Gray has made any generalizations, rather he helps men
and women to understand the differences in which men and women communicate,
so that they can apply it to the specific problem on a case to case
basis.Before I read the book, I too expected my other half to read my mind,
and then got upset when he didnt. And I have handled so many other situations
when I found him retreating into his cave, unwilling to talk to me and I
resisted from screaming "why cant you talk to me" bcos I finally understood
that it doesnt mean he's mad at *me*...
If, however, your other half doesnt behave in the way Gray has described, then
thats nice, say for instance your husband/bf does discuss his problems with
you, then you have the choice of comforting him and/or giving advice or
solutions (since we have made a distinction 'tween them).. but that , I guess
you can know only thru a trial and error .. if u find that once u gave comfort
and he dint like it, mayb he was looking for advice, and vice versa..thats
all the beauty of the process of learning abt your relationship..
As far as relative strangers are concerned, its not possible to know in
advance and without epxerience what that person wants.. hey you're not
superman!

take a look at deborah tannen's work, especially "you don't understand" for
a very different view of the gender communication gap. [forgive the typing,
i have abroken arm].

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