There's a book that just came out in May [2007] that I came across while
browsing at  Nicola's earlier in the week; It's called "Fat, Broke &
Lonely No More!  Your Personal  Solution to Overeating, Overspending,
and Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places" by  Victoria Moran.  And
it looked pretty interesting.  It seems to be a common enough theme  for
many women [hence the item here in the women's conference], though
apparently its  somewhat common for the guys as well.

From the inside cover: "Do you ever obsess about whether to order
dessert, buy those  pricey sandals, or be totally honest on a third
date?  If so, then you are already  acquainted with the fear of being
fat, broke & lonely.  If only we could eat less, get paid  better, and
be more outgoing.  Only its not that simple> Our endless quest to be
fit, flush,  and partnered [no matter where we fall on the scale]
inevitabley makes us feel fat, broke  & lonely.  The symptoms are
anxiety, shame, and fear, and the diagnosis is feeling  miserable about
ourselves.  We have two choices: give up, convinced that this is just a 
lifelong, losing battle, or go toe-to-toe with our negative self-image
and take back our  lives.  Real life anecdotes, practical strategies,
and a touch of sass make this  revolutionary five-step plan a must-read.
 First, Moran helps us discover the root of the  symptoms. Then we learn
how to break up with fat, broke & lonely for good. And finally,  we
learn how to hook up with the life of our dreams--and who doesn't want
that?"

I haven't gone into a whole lot of depth in this book [as yet] so I
don't know if/how  idealistic/difficult/easy these ideas are that the
author speaks about.  But I'm sure its  something that can get me
thinking...

44 responses total.

Later that evening [on the day I first came across this book], I did a
google search with  Fat, Broke & Lonely as my search.  Besides the
various places where you can order the  actual book, I looked at a short
video someone made--they had taken to the streets [of  Manhatten, IIRC,
and asked people if they had to choose fat, lonely or broke, which 
would they choose. The responses were interesting and varied; some of
them went into  a bit of detail why they'd choose what they did.  I also
looked through a discussion on  this topic at iVillage [though the
comments tended to drift later on; imagine that!  :-)  ]


I know I often feel all 3 of these things!  How about the rest of you,
how often, if at all,  do you feel any of the above? And how do you go
about dealing with it, or are you  unsure HOW to deal with them?  

Comments, suggestions, discussion?

Ah, here you are!  

What does the author think is the reason we get into this condition in
the first place!

I dunno yet, I need to find out!

Re: Fat. 

Well, since I *am* fat, I pretty much always feel fat. What I have 
learned is that being fat is probably outside of my control. Or 
rather, what it would take for me to be not fat is more than I can do 
and still be sane and happy. I have also learned that doesnt mean that 
I am a bad person. Being fat also doesnt mean that I necessarily have 
to be terribly unhealthy. So I changed my goal away from losing weight 
and have made new goals that are more attainable. e.g. walking several 
times a week is a goal. Making sure I eat enough fruits and veggies is 
a goal. Reducing my sugar intake is a goal. Those are all good things 
but are not things that cause me to lose a significant amount of 
weight.

I have put a lot of focus on not internalizing the messages our 
culture has about fat, especially those messages that arent based in 
fact. For instance, it isnt laziness on my part that keeps me fat. It 
isnt a complete lack of willpower that keeps me fat. It is a constant 
battle though because our culture tends to shame people for being fat. 
A lot of people consider it a moral failing. 

Basically my solution to feeling fat has been to change my outlook on 
what fat means. It doesnt mean I am unhealthy although since it is a 
risk factor for certain things, it does mean that I need to monitor my 
health more closely than others might need to. It doesnt mean that I 
am a bad person. It doesnt mean that I am ugly. It just means that I 
have a body shape that is different than most people's. 

Re: Broke

I am often broke. Some of that is due to some bad financial management 
on my part but ironicly some it that is due to good financial 
management on my part, i.e. I feel broke when I dont have enough money 
to buy things that I want but not buying them anyways on credit is 
good financial management. 

Lately though, since I am apparently in real danger of being fired 
from my job, I have been under more financial stress than usual. If I 
do get fired, I dont know what I'll do. Unemployment benefits would 
not be enough for me to live on. I might need to sell my house in such 
a situation if I couldnt find a job within a month or so. Almost all 
of my savings are in my retirement account which I could access but 
with penalties. I would hate to do that but if push came to shove, I 
guess I would have to. For now, I am seriously searching for another 
job and I just hope I can find one in time. 

What this has taught me more than anything is that I *really* need to 
work more on getting my financial house in order. I need to spend even 
less than I am spending now. I might need to try to find a roommate or 
something. I need to save more money so I can have that six months of 
salary that everyone recommends saved up so that if I ever find myself 
in a similar situation, I wont be quite as stressed out about it. 

Re: Lonely. 

I guess there are different types of loneliness. 

There is what I consider real lonliness where one finds oneself cut 
off from the rest of the world. Sometimes in the winter I experience 
this because I tend to get depressed in the winter. It is a vicious 
cycle. I get depressed enough that just going to work sucks up most of 
my energy so I dont make an effort to socialize. Then the lack of 
social interaction means that I start to feel lonely, which makes me 
more depressed, which in turn, makes me even less likely to do social 
things. I often have to make a real effort to socialize even if it is 
only talking to someone on the phone for a half hour. 

Being social and making the emotional connections that prevent 
loneliness are hard work. But important work. When I feel lonely, I 
call people and make an effort to see them. I tell people I love them. 
I hug my friends. 

There is also the loneliness of being single. Some of that, though, 
isnt real loneliness on my part, but rather a response to cultural 
expectations that people, and especially women, be partnered up. 
Mostly, I have decided that I am going to be single for the rest of my 
life and I have come to terms with that. I honestly believe that it is 
better to be single than to be with the wrong person. If the right 
person should happen to come along, that is great. 

Being single and feeling that particular kind of loneliness is still 
hard though. I dont meet very many men that I am interested in but 
when I do, they have (so far) pretty much always rejected me at some 
point or another. Well, all the men have rejected me except for the 
ones I rejected first! haha. Seriously though, that is a mind set I 
fall into occasionally. I will think, "Every man in the world has 
rejected me" but really that isnt true because there have been men who 
havent but whom I felt were lacking in one way or another so I 
actually was the one who rejected them. I guess it is easier to forget 
the people one rejects as romantic partners than the other ones. And 
ok, while I am not beating my many suiters off with a stick (although 
I did recently have a guy camped out on my front lawn), I do have some 
men who are interested. It just hasnt been anyone in whom I am also 
interested. 

I am really going to have to get this book...

I have to admit that I think it is interesting that the author of this 
book is addressing all of these things together in one book. At first, 
I thought it was odd but when I stopped to think about it, it all 
makes a kind of sense because those things are all connected in a way. 

I mean, I am fat. And like it or not, being fat makes it MUCH harder 
to find a mate. Being single increases loneliness. But it also has 
financial implications since single women tend to be poorer than 
married women. In my own case, I have a household income that is just 
slightly below the mean household income in the USA. But if I were 
married to someone with the same income, the two of us would have an 
income in the top 20% of household incomes. That is a difference 
between having a middle class income and an upper middle class income. 

I'm waiting for the book about men called "Fat, Broke and Drunk No More."

When I was single, I had a rule that, if I spent one weekend by myself,
I would spend some time the next weekend interacting with other people.
 Either a party, or volunteering, or something where I had to converse
and be involved.  

That rule was made up because I prefer to spend my time alone.  I know,
however, that social connections require regular maintenance, so I force
myself to do things to maintain them.  

I live alone now and have boundaries on how involved other people can be
in my life.  I find myself in the situation where I want less
interaction than the other person.  

For me, alone has meant solitary, not lonely.  

Fat, hrmmmm.  For me, fat has been less of a cultural burden.  *I'm* fat
when I have to buy new clothes because the current ones don't fit, not
because they are worn out.  

My weight has peaked a few times.  Once, I worked at bringing my eating
back in line.  A couple times it has dropped unconsciously when the
stress ended.  

Mostly I worry about what I eat, not what I weigh.  That said, I have to
work hard at conscious eating.  When I eat unconsciously, I often have a
very unbalanced diet, and eat more than I need.  The consequence of
these eating patterns is that I weigh more than I would like to.  

Broke.  Easy.  I'm always broke, no matter how much I make.  On the
other hand, my "broke" is different from many people's broke.  

Once in grad school, I went to my advisor to ask for help in finding a
fellowship because I was "broke".  He was inquiring about how soon I
needed the income.  I told him that I was good for the next 3-4 months,
but then I'd be in trouble.  His response was something along the lines
that most people didn't approach him until they were actually out of
money.  

I've faced uncertain income since I left Ford in the 1980s to start my
own  business.  I learned that you hadn't "earned" anything until the
check cleared the bank.  So my sense of being broke has something to do
with how full the accounts receivable pipeline is in my own life.  

I have to admit that I really like my alone time too. It is very easy 
for me to spend a whole weekend at home where the only time I go out 
is to take the dog for a walk. Sometimes on such weekends, I walk the 
dog either very early in the morning or very late at night in order to 
reduce the chances of running into people. 

I think that making a rule not to do that two weekends in a row is a 
good one. 

Re: #8
Fat, broke & lonely are all big social status downers for women, who 
(as a generality) are far more concerned with soft-power social 
status than men.  Low-self-esteem men are more interested in getting 
drunk than in reading a self-help book anyway. 


Historically, sexy, rich, and married have been the top-three signs
of a woman being a desirable slave to a man's wishes.  Staying so
focused on those in 2007 America, where "succeed on your own" is
often a better plan than "marry well", is not reasonable...but it's 
hard to fight human nature. 

I started reading the book this morning [but haven't gotten too far yet,
so I don't have too  much to share as yet].  I have a difficult time
remembering the details of what I read,  mainly remembering that I liked
or didn't like something, that it made sense or not,  whatever. This is
frustrating when, later, I want to further process the info [since I
often  don't do that as I read or participate in stuff].  So I started
underlining/highlighting stuff I  want to remember or go back over again
later, and I'm writing notes/comments/questions  in the margins.  More
on those things later, I'm not at home right now to refer back to.

I, too, feel fat because I *am* fat.  And usually this feels as a
negative thing,  sometimes physically but a lot more of the time,
emotionally. This is probably because  of the social stigma here in this
country about being overweight.  

I haven't always been overweight but have been through most of my
adulthood.  But  even in my youth, during the times I exceeded what was
viewed as weighing too much,  I was constantly being put down and
criticized by family members as well as others in  my life.  They very
well may have been concerned about my health but they definitely  came
across as being embarrased by me as well. My parents especially were 
frequently on my case about this [putting me on diets when I was in
grade school and  wanting me to go on diets later in life; bribing me to
lose weight; trying to get me to  exercise more, etc etc]. I usually
felt like I wasn't good enough for them since I didn't  meet their
standards. And this continues now as well [them making snide comments 
and such as well as often feeling that I'm not good enough].  

So I need to work on self esteem issues as well as viewing being fat
doesn't mean I'm  lazy, bad, or ugly [as Lynne commented above].  I
tend, for the most part, not view  others that are overweight in a
negative way; however, sometimes I find myself  comparing what I look
like to other women that are overweight instead of seeing each  of us as
acceptable as we are...

And its interesting that overweight men aren't seen as negatively as
women are [not  that they don't get harassed by it like we do].

Being broke: This is an ongoing thing for me.  During my working years,
I sometimes  had more of a disposable income then other times.  But I
never learned how to budget  my money, balance my checkbook, keep track
of income and outgo, etc. Again, am  often harassed by family that this
is something that I'm not good at.  I'm definitely am  an impulsive
spender alot of the time, which, especially now that I'm not working,
isn't  a good thing.  A lot of the time, I avoid going to places where I
like to spend  [bookstores, craft stores, eating out, that sort of
thing].  Or sometimes I just don't go  out for long periods of time to
avoid the temptations [and to not have to spend as much  $$ on gas and
save wear and tear on my car that is getting a bit up there in years and
 mileage--and I'm not always able to afford the maintenance and
recommended work  the car needs].

Off and on over the past 10 years or so, I've tried to get help with
learning how to  budget [through credit-counseling sort of places, a
class at the church I used to go to, a  past counselor taught me how to
balance my checkbook--finally having learned to do  so in my early 40s,
and most recently, talking to someone at the Center for  Independent
Living here in AA.  One of my brothers had also offered to help me with 
budgetting but since he lives a couple hours away, it wasn't really
followed up on.]

Even with the stuff I've learned, I still have problems keeping track of
everything,  though sometimes I try harder than other times.  Sometimes
I feel resentful when I  can't have the things others have.  And not
just the 'stuff' they have, but not having to  worry about living from
paycheck to paycheck, not worrying about housing, food,  paying
utilities and such--though I know people with higher incomes still worry
about  these things.  I also sometimes feel bad [and sometimes
resentful, especially when its  other family members] that I can't have
the vacations/travel that others have.

Being on disability, I do live from paycheck to paycheck.  In the recent
past, I've really  been trying hard to cut expenses; sometimes I'm
successful on this path, other times  not so much.  

So yes, I do feel like I'm broke, though at the moment, I do have a roof
over my head  and food in the refridgerator/pantry.  But I often wonder
what's going to happen as  time goes on and things happen.  I've been
super-close to becoming homeless while I  was still living in NC or not
having food to eat but at the last minute [more than once]  was provided
monetary assistance from others. But this is something that I can't
count  on, so I need to find a way to stick within my means.  

Because of health issues, I'm really resisting the idea of perhaps
trying to go back to  work part time; it's something I'm really afraid
to do because of my 'issues' I'm trying  to deal with.  But eventually,
I may have to go back to work [and am currently working  with a
counselor at the Michigan Rehab Services that's provided to me through
SS  Disability...  So we're currently exploring my options and looking
at if I *can* work out  a budget that would allow me not having to
work-and a plan that I'd be able to stick  with.  Time will tell how
this works out. In the meantime, I'm still in constant fear that  I'm
not going to 'make it'.  Such is the life I've lived over the past few
years...

[This is probably more detail than I should be posting on a public
forum...]

Lonely--yep, I sometimes feel this, too.  I've never felt like I've had
many 'close'  friends [or what we called 'best friends' when we were
growing up].  Though in the last  few years in NC, I did develop a few
friends where I felt we had more than just a  superficial relationship. 
And since having to move back up to MI, I miss having that,  though I do
still keep in fairly  regular contact with one of these friends and once
in  awhile with a couple others.  I know it'll take time before feeling
these kind of  relationships here in AA.

Though I've gotten better at appreciating my 'alone' time and often, I
really try and  protect that.  I've learned to be able to get out and do
stuff on my own and enjoy doing  that.  Though sometimes I really do
miss not having someone to call up to just chat  with or to go and hang
out with.  And it's seemingly harder to do with people who are  married
or otherwise busy with their families.  But at least online connections
[and  grexpeditions and HHs cetainly do make it much easier!  :-)

As far as being single or involved in a relationship with a SO, I've
definitely come to  terms with being on my own. At this point, I don't
know how well I'd do with having to  live with someone else [though in
my current living situation, I'm sharing a house with  someone. But he's
gone most of the time, sometimes I only see him once a week or  so, AND
he's involved in a relationship, so I don't have to worry about being
'hit on'.   And though I have access to most of the house [just not 2 of
the 4 bedrooms and his  bath], I have 2 bedrooms of my own where I spend
most of my time; one room as my  bedroom, the other is set up as my
'living room'.]

I've come to this acceptance of my single life mainly because of my
failed marriage  and multiple bad relationships after that [some of
which I was involved with mainly just  to be IN a relationship. 
Definitely not a good thing.  I've learned to build up a wall  around me
and I resist the relationships that could lead to something more serious
or  intimate because of the pain and bad memories that they caused.  I
somewhat do this,  too, in meeting people that can potentially become
friends as well.  Maybe from fear of  rejection but also because of so
much of the time, I seemed to make more of an effort  to get involved in
a friendship than the other potential friend did.  So these things do 
tend to stay more superficial. And I need to work on this...


Ok, enough 'confession' stuff for me right now!

Interesting article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/07/23/obesegirls.html

After tracking 11,000 American adolescents, a study released Monday
found that following secondary school, obese girls in the U.S. were half
as likely to enroll in college, versus their non-obese peers. 

Written by Robert Crosnoe, from the University of Texas at Austin, the
study was published in the July issue of the journal, Sociology of
Education. It defines obese young people as those individuals at the
highest end of the body mass index (BMI), a ratio of weight to height.

It found that, "Obese girls were less likely to enter college after high
school than were their non-obese peers, especially when they attended
schools in which obesity was relatively uncommon."
------------------------

It also turned out that obese boys were no less likely to attend
college, no matter what their high school situation.  

Whatever the messages are, they impact girls selectively, and probably
have a great deal of impact on being fat, broke, and lonely.  

Hmm, that's pretty interesting.  When I worked for the AA school system,
one of the jobs  I had was working in/running Huron's Career Resource
Center...  In the Career Center,  not only did we have lots of cool
stuff about careers, we also had college reps from all  over the country
come to talk with the juniors and seniors [the reps were often people 
from their admissions dept.].  So I wonder if they, by chance, have any
statistics on  applications [and acceptance rate] of males vs females
[they probably do]. Though there  wouldn't be a way to track the
applicant's size to know how that would play a role in the  selection
process.  But I do wonder if the HS counselors, when working with each
student,  encourage the various types of groups that the kids frequently
get put into [especially the  groups that the peers put others into but
also, the groups the individual places him or  herself into]. 
Groups/cliques based on appearance [good looks like your 'typical' 
homecoming queen or jock vs overweight people, etc] and for groups like
the various  activities one gets involved with and such...

Women are over represented in college populations these days.  According
to the National Center for Education Statistics, males make up only 44
percent of collegiate student bodies -- down from 58 percent 30 years
ago. So, lots more women than men go to college.  

(Acceptance is the decision of the kid to go to a particular college. 
Lots of kids are offered admission to multiple schools, but they can
only accept one.)

Are you suggesting that the reps themselves are comfortable with obese
boys, but uncomfortable with obese girls, and this influences their
recommendations?  That doesn't sound likely if the admission rates are
what they are.  Given that 66% of college students are women, you'd have
to have a pretty ferocious selection criterion that only allowed in the
slim ones.  

I would guess that the obese girls, with all the self-esteem problems
that go along with being obese in high school, are self-selecting out of
college.  

I started getting more into the book [Fat, Broke and Lonely] this
afternoon.  In the  introduction to the book, the author [Victoria
Moran] mentions some general things on  this topic. like how 'fat' isn't
a mere synonym for 'overweight'. In this society, ''fat' is a  somatic
epithet, a judgment, and a weapon... 'Broke' and 'lonely' are less
piercing but  scarcely more appealing."  She goes on to talk about,
though we are responsible for  our actions, 'they' [various parts of
society] aren't making it very easy [to maintain an  ideal weight, to
being financially stable, and to have all of the right kind of
relationships  we desire.]

The book is divided into 5 parts [with about 10 chapters in each part,
and a specific  action one can do pertaining the chapter's topic, to
help in that specific area. Of course,  there are a number of things one
can do, but this is a start to get one thinking and  moving in the right
direction.]  Here are the topics of each section: --Part One: Breaking
Up with the Emptiness Inside --Part Two: Breaking Up with Fat --Part
Three: Breaking Up with Broke --Part Four: Breaking Up with Lonely
--Part Five:  Hooking Up with the Life of Your Dreams There's also 8-9
pages of other books and articles at the end of the book.

OOps, Colleen slipped in.  I guess I *have* heard that female college
students now  outnumber the male students.  Though in my response above,
I was just rambling, typing  thougts; not sure what, if anything, I was
implying...  Just a curiousity.  :-)

I was wondering myself.  My particular bent is why women self select out
of engineering.  Less than three years ago, I taught a 2nd year computer
science class with 30 students and ZERO of them were women.  

This afternoon, I did read and highlight a few things that I'm going to
want to mull over a  bit more...  Though since there might be interest
in some of you getting the book, I'm not  sure how much detail y'all
want me to go into at this time [and spoil what you'll find later]?   I
can hold off for a little while but if there's enough interest, I can
highlight some of the  issues as I go along.

On a side note, I also started another book this week--"The Artist's
Way" that came out  about 10 years or so ago.  It's about unblocking
one's creativity and thus, enjoy a more  authentic journey through life.
 It's written as a 12-Week course with homework  assignments, which I've
already started on a little bit.

I think working through both of these books at the same time should be
pretty interesting.

Colleen slipped in again...  :-)

Yeah, I wonder about those things, too.  Like when my sister went
through HS [she  graduated in '71], she didn't have a clue as to what
she wanted to do after HS.  Back  then, women weren't as encouraged to
go on to college like we are now.  And she  apparently liked and did
well in math, but women weren't encouraged to do anything in  that area
[except maybe to go on to college to become a teacher].  So after she 
graduated, she went through a number of different jobs, trying to find
*something* she  wanted to do for the long term. She did various things
including waitressing, becoming  a beautician, working as a key-punch
operator, that sort of stuff.  She was the eldest of  the 7 kids in my
family, so she didn't have any older role models [and neither of my 
parents went on to college].  When one of my older brothers [who was 3rd
out of the 7  of us] went off to college and was doing well [in pre-med
at UM], my sister starting  thinking that maybe she could go to college,
too.  So she also went to UM, taking lots of  different types of
classes, still trying to decide 'what she wanted to be when she grew 
up'. In her junior or senior year [I forget which], she decided to take
the LSAT exam,  did well on it, and went on to law school at UM. 
Eventually, she ended up being able to  use her interest in math and
numbers as she got a job down in Texas, working for the  FDIC.  And this
was the time where many of the oil companies down there were going 
bankrupt; Chris had worked on the bank side of the things and apparently
did very well  at it.

Since this is the fem cf, this talk about self-selection and 
"encouragement" reminds me of what may be a notable difference between 
feminism in the 60s and 70s and the "lite" version we see now, when many 
women do not self-identify as feminists. While the earlier feminists 
certainly did not hesitate to point out the social structures that led to 
sex discrimination, there was also a HUGE consciousness-raising component 
that attempted to "de-program" women from believing in society's roles for 
them. I'm wondering if maybe that aspect has faded over the years. While 
there are certainly still hidden barriers to entry into fields like 
science and engineering, why do women seem so afraid to challenge those 
barrier by finding the courage to "jump into the fire"? Rosa Parks didn't 
wait for discrimination to end, she just grabbed her seat. Women should be 
doing the same in those areas where they are still "discouraged."

From my personal experience in 5 years of teaching at the engineering
school, even those who "jump in" reach a point where the hostility
overwhelms them.  

In the early 2000s it was still ok for a full professor to make jokes in
front of 100 first-year students about not having "girls" on your
(mandatory) first year team because they would rather be shopping.  To
consistently talk about "guys in engineering".   

The engineering school did a survey of undergrad  and grad students, and
tenured and untenured professors to try to find out why the numbers of
women were so low.  The official final report had to use words like
"cold and hostile environment"  because there was no way to put a nicer
face on it.  

Rosa Parks was expecting an hour-long bus ride, not an immersive
environment.  If the engineering school could be changed by one
Rosa-Parks type action, it would have become more attractive decades
ago.  

What intrigues me about this is that other professions have made the
change.  When I went to a technical university in the 60s, I saw nothing
wrong with being one of the 20% of women in the engineering classes. It
was true of engineering, medicine, law, and business at the time.

Somehow medicine, law, and business schools have managed to change their
culture and environment.  Women attend and graduate from those schools
at near-parity with men.  But the culture of engineering schools has not
changed.  

I wrote about this on my blog and the author of the book found me and 
offered me a free copy :) I thought that was nice. I turned her down 
though. I am going to try to find a copy in the free book room. 

As for women not identifying themselves as feminists...I think there 
are lots of reasons for that. Some of the reasons are that rocking the 
boat can be pretty costly. I mean, I have heard even liberal 
progressive men make jokes about how unattractive feminists are. I 
really hear those kinds of statements from men I know who are more to 
the right. If the message is that being a feminist makes one 
unattractive, that is a pretty strong disincentive to identify as a 
feminist. I think this is why I often hear women making statements 
like, "I am not a feminist but, I think that women should be treated 
equally to men and I think that things women value should be more 
important in society." 

I always want to say, "Well shit. What do you think makes a person a 
feminist? Armpit hair?"

*laugh*  I remember a group of young Democrats calling each other just before
a fundraiser and deciding that we would wear dresses.  It was radical.  

There are some pretty shrill people out there who identify themselves as 
feminists.  There are a lot of feminist bloggers out there who are eating 
each other alive.  When they aren't whining about their own victimhood, 
that is.

That may be why some women don't want to be labeled as such.

And this isn't just taking place in the feminine arena; it happens
elsewhere, too.  This  discussion reminds me of something that happened
to me just a few years ago [2003].   I was going through orientation for
a new job and we had some training on diversity  [and how we all should
tolerate/get along with others that are different than otherselves  in
some way or another].  Later that day, a group of us had to take a test
on a topic  that had just been taught.  Well, one of my areas of
difficulty is that I have ADD.  After  a short while when a lot of the
class was already done, the instructor asked if anyone  else was still
working on the test and how much longer would it take to get done... 
During the previous 5-10 minutes, there had been a lot of chatter going
on, including  from the teacher.  So anyway, I said that I was still
trying to work on the test but was  slowed down because of all of the
chatter/noise that was going on.  So he made a  rather rude comment
about people with ADD.  During the morning session on divirsity,  we
were told that if we felt harassed by anyone that worked with this
company, or they  said anything discriminatory, that we shouldn't let it
slide--to tell someone in the  hierarchy of the business.  So I did
mention this comment to that person that led that  morning's training..
She apparently said something to the instructor [as she should  have].
Down the road, I got a note from the instructor [who works in another
location]  apologizing, that he meant it as 'just a joke'.  Well, I
think statements like what he  made that day was NOT a joke when it
makes fun of one with some kind of problem or  issue.  Like the jokes
people used to make about black people, those weren't really  jokes at
all when they cause harm to the black race...

When will diversity training get it through people's thick skulls that *making
jokes* about the difference is just as bad as snide remarks and sarcasm?

"I was just joking" is a red flag for me that the person is trying to get away
with hurtful remarks by blaming the victim for responding to the provocation.

That's so true, Colleen.  Sometimes I'll call people on it, depending on
the situation it  takes place in...

resp:30 Interesting. I have been really impressed with the feminist
blogosphere for the most part. I think they are pretty good at pointing
out all of the many ways society still treats women unfairly without
falling into the trap of coming across as helpless victims. For the most
part. 

Re: #18 & following
Tempting to wonder if dim-but-thin girls are being routed to college
(in the hope that they'll marry well before flunking out?), while dim-
but-thin boys are (correctly) routed away from college.  Or are girls
often more compliant with social expectations (to diet & study as much
as it takes to stay thin & college-tracked) than boys?

Re: #27 & following
Socially isolated all-male groups tend to develop in ways that repel
any reasonable female.  Take a bunch of socially-handicapped males
(who'll generally do better in the math/hard science/engineering part
of academia, vs. business/law/medicine), and it's bound to be worse.

I've also heard that the instructional style in math/hard science/
engineering effectively selects nerds and rejects women - it's often
"forget the forest, forget the tree, we're going to count every pore
on this one leaf with an electron microscope, and don't ask why".

Re: #28 & following
Even without the media's help, every group's worst examples get the
most notice.  Who likes or wants to be a "Christian" if that word
means "hate-spewing fundy who does hard drugs with hookers 3 times
a week"?  Probably nobody you'd want to go near. 

Re: #31 & following
"I was joking" == "I was testing the water to see how much evil I
could get away with".  It's too well documented how fast many people
become depraved if they can get away with it, and how easily most
people go along with that. 

I recently read an article--that there was some study that showed that
being overweight  can be 'contagious'--that if you are overweight [or
gain weight], then the people you hang  out with may also gain weight
[even if its just a few pounds, IIRC].  I wish I remembered  the
specifics; did anyone else read about this?  I think it was last night
while online, I read  a comment about this article that someone
made--that perhaps if some of the overweight  people went over to the
undernourished countries, then maybe they'd gain weight... I wish  is
was as easy as that!

I read a bit more of the book today. I'm done with the first section and
am into the section  about overcoming the fat aspect of life.  Though
the author has some viable options and  ideas, a number of them are
pretty simplistic [stuff/ideas that we would do if we could  [been
there, tried that, it didn't work] and in some of these ideas and
situations, I haven't  figured out her answers to *how* to accomplish
the things that she suggests.  Perhaps I  need to continue reading
[which I plan to] but I'm getting frustrated at times...

Again, I don't have the book right here so I'll try and mention a few
things later on that  we can discuss. Perhaps some of you have ways to
work on these issues...

Here's the link.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/25/healthscience/fat.php

It was a reanalysis of data from the Framingham Study.  

"Dr. Nicholas Christakis, a physician and professor of medical sociology
at Harvard Medical School and a principal investigator in the new study,
says one explanation is that friends affect each others' perception of
fatness. When a close friend becomes obese, obesity may not look so bad.

"You change your idea of what is an acceptable body type by looking at
the people around you," Christakis said." 

I'm not sure what to think.  There's a whiff of "blaming the victim" in
this. From the same study 

"Science has shown that individuals have genetically determined ranges
of weights, spanning perhaps 30 or so pounds, or 13.5 kilograms, for
each person. But that leaves a large role for the environment in
determining whether a person's weight is near the top of his or her
range or near the bottom."

They haven't really done much work on how much impact the environment
has.  And it doesn't seem to take into account any medical conditions'
contribution to which end of the range you are on.

Re: #38
My impression is that many medical conditions (and/or side-effects of
the drugs used to treat them) often shift a person's weight by more
than 30 pounds - so they probably either mix that in with the genes,
or effectively exclude people with such conditions from the study.

It would be interesting to know how much of the supposed health 
benefits of being thin are an effect of where your genetic range
is (90-120 range makes you healthier than 190-220 range?), vs.
where you are in that range.  Not very useful socially, but it 
might help against discrimination by insurance companies, etc.


Somehow, this doesn't seem like much of a discovery.  "Weight is
partly determined by behavior" and "many people adjust their 
behavior to be more like those around them"...wow, who knew?

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss