I'm facing the day I thought I never would see.  My teenaged, usually
pretty sensitive to justice issues, son has informed me that he's
quite certain that feminism is just another form of sexism used to
put men down.  He says that feminism might have been needed once --but
hat women are equal to men now, or even better off because in addition
to having equal access to male privilege, we also get to expect
candy and flowrs, jewelry, and cards on special holidays like 
our birthdays and valentines day.  or even on dates we get to
be treated.

I've tried to explain to him that

A) mature people understand that equality means just that.  The women
and men I know as feminists have either decided that they don't value
the "romantic" customs like flowers and candy for either sex, or they
value them for both.  

B) women most assuredly *do not* have equal access to the "male
privileges.  We make 80cents for every dollar a man makes at the same job, 
have a tougher time getting promotions beyond a certain point or even
training for the jobs that might pay better.

I tried pointing that there are only 2 women out of 10 members of
the senate.  He said if more women were interested in running there would
be better representation.

I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall here.  He doubts
anything I've been able to comeup with.  (I don't get into wrangles
with him abut it --these conversations have taken place over several months.)
What, if anything, can I bring up to help him see that, whether he
thinks equality for women is a good idea or not, we definitely don'y
have it the same as men, much less better.?

How would *you* handle this?

14 responses total.

He may be leading a rather sheltered life in a balmy part of the country...
any easy way to get him exposed to some obnoxious sexism?  Of course, what
a teenage male says and what he really believes (if anything) on such a basic
social issue may have nothing in common anyway...

I'd start out by recommending that he read Deborah Tannen's book
_You Just Don't Understand_ (discussing differences in language
styles, some of which are gender related) and continue by finding
out exactly what kind of "feminism" it is that he thinks is no
longer necessary.  You may not be quite as far apart as it sounds.

I'm a man and I find feminism a very good issue, for you have first in 
an own group to find better solutions, before you can make them general.

This is maybe a bit abstract. But some issues need a strong solution 
that otherwise can drown when too soon aggressive attacks follow. 

And when women feel attracted to it that can I appreciate.

But when women like to marry that I appreciate very well.

I actually use the word "equalist" - not feminist.

i'm down with that!

#4, Yes equalist, that would be the ideal word in a relationship. Not 
the same but very equal.

If women try to correct social injustice they can use own, relatively 
isolated groups, as well. We are free in this, I think.

But you are completely right, a relation is risky if one party thinks 
it has more rights. 

I don't like to talk about rights. In a realtion between equals, you 
give room and it's much nicer talking.

#5, which rights do you want more my dear Papa?

I leave now Grex, for a time. I wish all the women the best that's 
possible and of course the men as well.

#4 Edina, yes!

You've got a perceptive teen age son.

The BIG LIE:  "We make 80cents for every dollar a man makes at the same job"

Facts:  (1) Single, never-married women living alone make more than single
never married men living alone.  (2) Women working part-time make 115% the
money that men working part time make.  (3)  That 80 cents figure is not
adjusted for: education level, type of work, hours worked, or years on the
job.

so how's YOUR sex life?

re#8 Where do you get your facts, klg. All the data I have seen 
suggests that single never married women who live alone make about the 
same (not more) than single never married men who live alone. 

It is true that the 80 cents on the dollar figure (although I usally 
hear 70 cents on the dollar) doesnt take into account education level, 
type of work, hours worked or years on the job. Women probably earn 
less as a group because it is *much* more common for a woman to take 
time off for raising children which costs her for the rest of her life. 
The point, of course, is that economic disparity between genders might 
be more a result of cultural things rather than employer 
discrimination. 


I dont mind the term 'feminist' at all. Of course I think laws should 
be 'equalist" but I think certain things definately do have more to do 
with women than they do with men and anything that has to do with that 
would be 'feminist'. For example, a book like "Our Bodies, Ourselves" 
would be 'feminist' but that isnt a bad thing in my mind. It is ok to 
be a little bit feminist. 

Here is an article summarizing the report I read:

Single Women Outmatch Men's Earnings

Single women who have never married, live alone and have full-time jobs earn
more than their male equivalents by 28 cents per hour, according to an
analysis of March 2001 Current Population Survey data by the Employment Policy
Foundation (EPF).  At $17.26 per hour, single women earn 101.6 percent of
single men's hourly earnings across the full spectrum of occupations,
education levels and age. In the last 20 years, women have made significant
progress.  In March 1981, single women earned only 93 cents compared to every
dollar of hourly wages earned by men.

"Comparing the earnings of women and men is complicated by the dynamics of
marriage and family responsibilities," said EPF President Ed Potter.  "To
assess how women's earnings compare to men's, EPF examined data for both
genders in relationship to their marital status and parent roles."

Women's earnings are impacted by a variety of factors associated with family
and parenting choices, Potter said.  EPF analyzed data compiled in the Panel
Study of Income Dynamics (PSID) survey program from 1968 to 1997 and found
that full-time working women averaged 3.2 years less work experience than men
by age 45.  The difference in work experience reflects women interrupting
their careers for marriage and parenting.

"The good news is that the experience gap is closing for young women," Potter
said.  "In 1993, the cumulative experience loss by age 45 was 5.1 years - 50
percent greater than the 1997 rate."

Education levels are an additional factor affecting women's earnings in
comparison to men.  Women working full-time are less likely than men to have
post-graduate degrees, despite their equal likelihood of having a bachelor's
degree.  Women with post-graduate degrees make up 25 percent of the full-time
workforce with advanced degrees compared to their 40 percent share in the
overall full-time workforce.

Women devote considerably more time to household chores than men - 14.2 hours
per week in 1997 compared to 7 hours for men, according to the PSID survey.
The "housework effect" may contribute to the earnings advantage of married
men.  A man age 30-34 with a wife earns on average 15 percent more than his
single brother in the same age group, but only 8 percent more than his single
sister.

Despite the impacts of unequal distribution of housework burdens and work
experience deficits, women have moved forward significantly in the labor
market over the past 20 years.  Women have made major advances into
managerial, professional and technical occupations - high paying fields that
have led both job growth and earnings growth.  In 1981, women accounted for
38 percent of jobholders in these leading occupations, but in
2001, the number of women in management, professional and technical field
accounted for 51 percent of these jobs.

EPF also looked at the earnings of all full-time workers without children.
In 1981, women age 25-39 without kids earned 88 percent of men's hourly wages.
In 2001, women in this group earned 96 percent of the amount that similar men
earn.  The difference can be attributed to differences in work experience,
occupational choice and marital status

In my country women with the *same* functions earn still more than 10 % 
less then comparable men, with different per work group, work time, and 
age. Of course there are top women most in modern industries who earn 
many times the average of men, as well. I don't see it as a simple 
issue. The different figures point to the same, I think. For me the 
issue of equal chances is more important.

In this country you see two trents women get higher jobs and women are 
caring more for their children, like she (of Bush).

I think feminism has more goals than earnings as well.

re#11 Interesting. I wont quibble with that article since it is more 
recent than anything I have read lately. If they got their data 
correct, it is a very encouraging article. 

I'd like to know where the article ran, but yes, it does sound very
encouraging.

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