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27 responses total.

>What do you say to someone like that?

How about, "Go away and come back when you get a clue."  Seriously,
though, if I'm discussing something with someone and it's clear they
don't know what they're talking about, I'll try to explain it to
them *once.*  If they are seriously interested, they will listen to
me and get the picture or at least ask enough intelligent questions
that lead me to believe they are trying to get the picture.

More often than not, however, they are not interested in what I have to
say nor are they really interested in learning.  In that case, I just
ignore them.  It's amazing how many people are like this

As far as succeeding in a male-dominated field, I suspect that you do
this the way some men do it--do your work, do it well, make sure others
know you do it well.  That last point is key, and something a lot of 
men have trouble with.

This is not to say that women don't have some extra challenges.  I think
they do--certainly in engineering--but the basics for success are the
same.

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While I can't answer the question, I just read a fascinating book called
"Feminist Fatale: Voices From the Twenty-something generation Speak About
the Future of the Women's Movement" by Paula Kamen.  One of the big themes
in this book is the large number of folk (both men and women) who claim to
support women in their struggle for equality (whatever that means) but who
adamantly deny that they are feminists, because, well you know, feminists
are hairy-legged, brash, man-hating dykes , and who'd want to be like that.
(Note, the previous is a paraphrase, and definitely does not represent the
views of Chris Bartlett.)  Women in particular seemed to be afraid of being
labeled as lesbians.

The response to the "I agree with you but don't call me a feminist" line
from some women who do call themselves feminists is that to do so implies a
higher level of commitment, since it implies that you are willing to endure
the misunderstanding in order to make your message stronger.

So what do I call myself?  I call myself an individualist if pressed to add
an ist or an ism to my identity.  I don't like ists and isms myself, but
they have their uses as linguistic macros.  The problem is that I don't
support everything that some self-proclaimed feminists advocate, nor do I
see there being a coherent feminist voice at this time.  In the absence of
such, it seems at best imprecise to call myself a feminist.  And of course,
I'm dreadfully afraid of being called a lesbian.  <absolutely straight face
for all of ten nanoseconds.>

I call myself a Feminist and I am very very proud to be one and call myself
that.  But I think that's because I define feminism my way and I do not
permit myself to be defined or labelled by anyone else.  If someone refers
to me as a feminist I agree and smile, and ask what they mean by the word.
Then, if they define it in a way with which I do not agree, I correct
their thinking. {

Exactly.  Do what you need to do to succeed as an engineer or whatever
and don't worry about the small-minded. If you're also a real human
being, the people that matter will see you as a successful person,
nothing more and nothing less.

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...then you need to find yourself a new employer.  You know, these
things happen to men, too, although perhaps not as much.  I've 
worked for companies where I just didn't fit into the culture.  My only
recourse was to quit and find a place where I fit in better.  There are
too many options--especially at this time/place in your life--to waste
time working for the wrong people or for the wrong company.

((I expect you know this, Valerie, as you've just gotten out of a 
situation like this.  I'm saying this for the benefit of our "readers." ))

To the original entry:
Valerie, this doesn't depart from what has already been said about the fellow
by others, but perhaps fills in some detail.  That guy was doing with you what
a kid does in picking at a scab; s/he is sure there is a wound somewhere and
can't help poking around until s/he finds it.  The fellow was convinced that
"feminist" means a lot of hostility and repressed anger toward men and was
digging at you wandering when it would erupt.  It was not an intellectual
thing, and trying to convince him on a rational level that you were not hostile
probably wouldn't work.  If you had gotten annoyed rather than perplexed and
told him to buzz off, he would have assumed that he had found your hostility.
        To responses that touched on succeeding in a world populated by the
        likes of him:
It has been said often enough that there are 2 groups in the world - those
that produce the results and those who get the credit.  I would say that the
barriers to success are tough for everybody, enough so that gender often does
not mean that much.  And I have to disagree with Dan R that there are always
many options.

Audrey, I've come to the conclusion that the willingness to call oneself
a feminist freely is largely a generational thing.  I'me willing, even
proud, to be known as a feminist.  Most of the women my age and older
in my life seem to feel the same way.  Women under 30 seem to be
much more ambivalent (at best).  My theory (borrowed from I forget where)
is that the "conservative media" has spent alot of time painting a
picture of "feminist=hairy, brash, lesbian".  Those of us old enough
to remember the feminist revival of the late 60's and early 70's have
that sisterly, supportive image of feminism as our strongest influence.
Younger women are more influenced by the more recent backlash images.
(Hmmm, I hear a little faludi in there --though I dunno how much of
that opinion I lifted from her as whole cloth.  ;)  )

I looked up feminism in my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary-
itdefined feminism as the following "the theory of the political, 
economic, and social equality of the sexes: organized activity on
behalf of women' rights and interests"
taking that definition of feminism I am more then happy to call myself
a feminist, no where in that definition does it say feminists think
all men are pigs, or that we just in genereal hate them and think we
are better then they are.

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Nowhere in the definition does it state that a feminist must be female,
either.  Guess I can call myself a feminist too.

Yes! We can all be feminists, and I think we should be.

Cool.  I think the reason so many younger women are hessitant to use that
label is due to the extremists that also use the label.  I am curious why
we label those seeking equal rights as feminists, but we have no label for
those who do not support it.  Sexist seems only to apply to those who
discriminate, not those who choose to remain nuetral.

MAy I offer another slant?  I have in the past said that men are pigs
without a woman present.  Not knowing the person inquestion, I can't
vouch for him, but I can tell you why I did it.  Yes, I was picking at
a scab, but it wasn't somebody else's.  I was at the time wounded by
having been told, consistently, that I had no feelings because I was
a white male Protestant (now I'm just two of those) who therefore
had all the benefits in life and spent the better part of my life
plotting with other white male Protestants on how to keep those
goodies.  I started self-depracating because everybody around me
was insulting me, or so I felt.  I even had a prolonged conversation
with some women in which we laughed about all the weaknesses of males
(in general).  I started a sentence with "To be fair, women aren't perfect
either".  Ice formed on the windows.  I asked why it was o.k. to insult
men but not women, and they said because they were women, they didn't
care about improving men's lot any.
I've since grown out of that phase somewhat (although I nearly ended my
entry to the spouse abuse item below with "I'll crawl back into my hole
now", so obviously a bit of it's still left).  Some women have voiced the 
concern that men don't take their feelings seriously when a woman tries to
talk about her fear of rape, for instance, and the man responds with "Hey,
I never do that", as if she were talking to him, specifically.  Likewise,
I doubt the male in question is necessarily talking to you, as a woman, who is
a feminist and (therefore) a "ball-breaker".  He is saying that he is hurt and
wants to talk, but doesn't know how, perhaps.  But most of all, I feel, he is
just saying that he has gotten so used to being treated like dirt for having
been born into an oppresor class (no other reason) that he's ready to treat
himself like dirt, just to gain acceptance. (Like I said, I don't know him, so
I may be dead wrong.  I'm just speaking from my own personal experience.)

As it is now, the world population consists of 52% females to 48% males.       
                     technically, that means it is a female dominated wothere!
You guys are wrong!

In South Africa, the white population has always been out numbered
by the blacks.  But black dominated?  Not really.

Just a thought.

I'm 27, reasonably successful, and a feminist.  What I can't stand
is when wome of my male colleagues tiptoe around me because they 
are afraid of offending me.  I don't bite (most times), but I finde
that they think that I do.  To me when a man says something like
"men are pigs", I think that he is a wimp, trying to please me in 
some new age sensitive guy type of way.  The  word  feminist refers
to the belief that politically men and women should be treated the same
and should have the same rights and privileges.  blah blah blah.  I
am a feminist in that sense.  But this label unfortunately means that
when the guys go out for beer, I never get invited (which hurts me
in my line of business).  When they do go out with me it is always
as a man with a woman, and I can't talk about business in that setting.
'Let's forget about work honey, let's just have a good time.'
Is this experience typical?

Yes.  IT's because men are pigs.
*brighn ducks flying portfolios*

I dunno.  I don't get invited out to beer very often.  I try to treat
both genders equally.  

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Men can be beautiful.  How can you say that they are pigs?  It's just that
I think that some of them should learn to separate sex from business (I
know it's not as simple as that but try).  Sometimes I get annoyed but
if a guy knows how to flirt, I think that it can be flattering.
By the way in the financial markets, people are not people.  They belong
to a weird tribe with some pretty strange rituals, including the art
of drinking beer.  Personally, I prefer sherry.

Pigs can be beautiful, too.  :)

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Is that why people keep them as pets?

I imagine so.  We should really get tnt to respond in this item ...

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valerie mates is one fucked up bitch. her head is one big mass of 
putrid shit. i feel sorry for janc

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