We are in sorry shape when people think they're doing something meaningful
to save energy and clean up the environment by such miniscule efforts as
using energy saving shower heads and "miser" light bulbs, while they continue
to cruise around in the biggest waste of energy, the individual automobile.
In addition to being a scourge on the environment, the automobile is ruining
the soul of America, destroying community by isolating us behind power door
locks and air conditioners with closed windows.  It is culturally ugly. (See
Enviro Item #7, "The Similarity Between the tomobile and Television).  It
builds a culture of selfishness and privatism.  It is used as a ego and status
builder by people who have no clue as to what real worth is.  If a dumb
high school dropout auto worker who does work that can be performed by a 
trained monkey can afford a new Ford Bronco, of what significance or value is
it.
Oil is one of the world's most valuble assets, and it is extremely undervalue
d in monetary terms today.  It take 10 million years to make it, and we are
squandering an eon's supply in 100 years.  Rather than in energy production,
the real  value of oil lies in its use for chemical feedstocks, making a wide
variety of useful products including plastics.  Plastics may not seem that
impressive to you, but they have become extremely strong and versitile while
remaining cheap.  Are we to deprive our children and grandchildren of "the
good life," a comfortable and non-tedious life for our own indolence?
Dependency on the automobile is an economic disaster.  The U.S. is making 
gains in productivity while the developing nations are experiencing raises
in the standard (and cost) of living.  We are at a point where we could regain
some of the jobs previously exported, if only we could reduce our cost of 
living.  The automobile is an extremely expensive form of transportation, and
I you say, I can afford it, I'm a free American, leave me alone, you must 
remember that the rest of society pays for your lifestyle.  Your demands for
pay are reflected in increase in the prices for goods and services we all pay.
You scream for tax breaks.  Give yourself a break and take the bus: You'll 
have money in the bank and society will have more investment capital.
This becomes even more important when it comes to creating jobs for the 
unemployed and giving people an option other than turning to crime.  Those
jobs we can repatriate will pay $8. an hour which is not that much if you 
have to pay rent.  In Chicago, a bus pass is only $73. a month, unlimited
ridership in city and suburbs, except Metra commuter rail to the distant 
suburbs.  F
Figure it out, folks, what kind of nation are we, and what kind do we want
to be?

398 responses total.

We are a profligate, wasteful and selfish nation - and we love it. That
also makes us immoral. A slight (very) compensation is that we have made
the autos-we-cannot-do-without smaller, lighter, and greatly more fuel
efficient, but our per capita fuel consumption is very much greater than
for the world as a whole - and it cannot continue. 

No, it can't: the rest of the world will catch up.

They cannot: resource depletion, pollution and population excesses are
already at a critical point. 

No doubt true.  If they could, they would, though, I bet.

As strong as ma
my opening statement was on the alienating impact of the automobile on society,
I thing I failed to communicate my point:  We have no civilization in Americar.
We ride around in caskets (47,000 per year killed in auto crashes, who know
how many paralyzed or otherwise extremely handicapped), or, if you will, tanks.
With the windows up and the doors locked and the air conditioner on even if 
it's 60 degrees outside.  What I mean to say is that we are isolated, not a 
society, but amoebae.  We view a stranger as someone to  be afraid of.  Some-
one walking down the street as suspicious!  We have become a nation of 
barbarians and paranoid, fearsome, isolated idiots.  Most people reading this
have never lived in a workable city like Chicago.  Quit your job, sell your 
car, pack three suitcases, and take the train to Chicago.  Leave your TV in
Michigan where it belongs.  Get an apartment on the North Side and learn what
life and civilization and real people are about.

Uh... okay, first off I take the bus every where I go that isn't within walking
distance (walking distance seems to become shorter as the winter progresses ;))
, I could afford a car, but I don't want one, too much trouble, and I really 
don't like them (not the one's we have anyway.)  Now, with that out of the way
I would like to respond to the last portion of your statement.  I take a little
offense at the seemingly holier-than-thou attitude that your taking.  Of course
I could be misunderstanding you, and please tell me if I am, but I don't think
that we are any less real just because of where we live.  I have been to Chic-
ago, visting family, and aside from it's size in terms of people and business
(and crime for that matter) I don't it being any different.  Life is what you
make of it, not where.  We *are* real people here.  And besides, if it's so
real and all that over there, why are you sitting in front of a computer at 
6:00 in the evening?

would it be better for those people who aren't going to stop driving to
not bother with showerheads, miserlights, or even turning off lights
and appliances when they leave the room?

A few points:

1) I lived in Toronto for eleven years. It was great to live in a city where
   you can go anywhere by public transit -- bus and subway. However, the car
   is still better.

2) I will continue to drive my new Jeep which gets only 17 MPG until the
   government raises prices at the gas pump. I work hard and I have the
   right to drive whatever the hell I can *afford* to drive. If the 
   government thinks the American people are using too much gas, the 
   government can raise gasoline taxes and lower some other taxes in return.

3) The government can raise CAFE standards. The government can implement 
   harsher "gas-guzzler" taxes (with equal tax cuts elsewhere). People should
   be able to drive whatever they can afford to drive. The only barrier to
   automobile transportation should be economic, not moral. 

4) I agree with some of Bill's premises -- primiarily that petroleum is
   monetarily undervalued. The proper thing to do is to raise gasoline taxes
   while lowering other taxes. This implements a free-market, hands-off 
   limiter to how much oil Americans use. It's natural. Poor people can use
   public transit while wealthy people have the option of driving whatever
   the hell they want, whenever they want. That is the American way. As a
   matter of fact, if gasoline where $5+ per gallon like it is in Europe,
   you'll see a huge jump in the number of people using public transit and
   car-poolers. 

I completely agree with rogue on this issue. I don't plan on stopping
the use of my car. The remedies are available. I favor a large gas tax
increase. The US is totally out of step with the rest of the world on 
Gas prices.

I also agree. I think the solution is to raise gas taxes by an order of
magnitude. When gas costs $3.00 to $5.00 a gallon, you *will* see it's
use go *way* down. I also agree with the original article, the *chemical*
store house in all the world's oil is of much greater significance than
it's energy value, and we're squandering that.

Egads, it must be getting late...I agree with rogue too, though maybe not
worded quite so abrasively :).  Also, while upping the gas tax, I wouldn't
lower other taxes, I'd reduce the deficit.  Clinton's BTU tax was cool before
he buckled to lobbyists with zillions of exceptions - tax all fossil fuels!

This response has been erased.

PRoblem: we have spent decades building the country in a way that necessitates
driving for most of us to get to work.  When places of business are so 
scattered around the countryside (as they are outside the big cities) one
has no choice, and no public transport system could service it all cheaply.
PRoblem2: The political system gives politicians MANY reasons to seek 
re-election, and they KNOW they can't achieve that if they raise gas taxes.
PRoblem3:  The vast majority of the population do not understand the problems
we are discussing, and many are possibly incapable of understanding because 
they don't have the education.  

Isn't population growth the biggest problem of all, with major impact on
resource depletion, crime, etc?  A group in Texas transmuted the old 
Zero Population Growth (ZPG) movement into Negative Population Growth (NPG)
a couple of years ago, but I have failed to join, even though I support what
they are doing.
Less people makes the biggest dent of all in our problems!

Re:#13,  #1: Definately.  Even in cities like Chicago, which has *excellant*
pub trans, it's basically 1920s technology, on a like it or lump it basis.
Go to the more distant suburbs, and it's pretty thin, except the commuter 
rail, radially oriented into the city downtown.  Go to the Detroit suburbs,
it's worse than non-existant.  Ann Arbor Trans Auth buses have such long
headways (times between buses) that it can take double or triple the time as 
by car.  It doesn't have to be that way.  I've had schemes for 25 years that
are faster and more convenient than the car.  In that last few years I'm been
writing various transit planners around the country, and I think they're 
starting to bubble up to the surface.
See tomorrow's Free Press.
#2: I wrote too much, #2's gone from my screen, & i'm so tired i can't remember
- will reply later.
#3: You don't need to be a rocket scientist to be able to figure out that 
we're ruining our environment and depleting our oil stocks and spending way
too much on transportation as a % of our living expense.  The problem is
that the media's biggest advertisers are car manufacturers, and they sell
the automotive idiot's dream of happiness 24 hours a day.  Most people 
reading this have never lived w/o a car, and think public transportation is
only for the poor.  That's why I suggested at the beginning of this Item that
they should leave their car & TV behind, and go live in Chicago (or Boston,
Seattle, or SanFrancisco, not NY, I'd never want to subject anyone to that
zoo).  It'll clear up your acne and headaches!
If you don't believe the automobile is poisoning the atmosphere, consider 
this: in the past 10 years, the incidence of asthma (from which I suffer) has
gone up 42%.

Ok, back to response #13



People hate to pay taxes, especially for something they wouldn't dream of 
using and are unsympathetic with.  The issue of building the economy and
creating jobs and it's link to creating jobs has to be articulate and it
will be.  If you've been reading the Free Press in the last week you'll
see that the Tri-county leaders are starting to articulate the urgent need
to at least bring the Detroit area up to the level as the rest of the larger
cities in Americar.  I just hear L. Brooks Patterson, the Oakland County 
Executive today proposing building a public transit system that far surpasses
anything extant in Americar today, using demand-response, computer dispatched
buses.  I've been talking about this since 1970.  And I'm on the job.  Some
of my health problems are clearing up, and I'm not so worn down.  I've tried
before and burned out, facing the "not invented here" syndrome and general
lethargy of government and take it or leave it attitude of the government run
public transit industry.
You can do your part my riding the AATA, however poor it's service may be, 
with long waits between buses.  'Tain't so bad if you know (or carry w. you)
the schedule(s) of the bus(es) you ride.  From what I understand it's a 
pretty decent system as far as it goes: The buses pretty much run on 
schedule, and I'm sure transfers (meeting of crossing buses) are pretty well
coordinated.  Any half competant transit system can do that.
You'll find that instead of fighting traffic and cursing out other drivers,
you can relax and read or gaze out the window at the city passing by, or
talk to the cute little old lady sitting next to you.  You might discover 
that you live in a human environment.
Service is a circular affair, the more people ride, the better the service
gets.  If you car about your children's well being, the atmosphere and 
economy they are going to live in, whether there's going to be oil to make
chemicals and plastics, give p.t. a try, you may just like it!

#11: You're gaining some sense. :-) 

#12: Public transit will "magically" appear once gasoline is $3-$5 like
     Greg mentioned. The gas tax will fund tax reductions elsewhere. It's
     futile to subsidize public transportation when gas prices are $1.00.
     The government is spinning its tires, so to speak. 

#13: Population growth is the single greatest problem facing humanity today.
     Because of ignorance and brain-washing by the Catholic church, nothing
     is being done. I don't bother worrying about population-growth anymore
     because there are too many stupid and ignorant people on earth for
     anything significant to be done. I'll just enjoy myself while I live.

#15: I recycle because it takes little more effort and time than not 
     recycling. I don't litter because it takes little more effort and time
     to dispose of trash properly. 

     I am not going to take the AATA to work (probably over 1 hour) while
     I can drive anytime in 15 minutes. My doing so will benefit nobody. 
     That's a difference of probably 1.5 to 2 hours a da. My time is worth
     at least $50/hr. Gasoline would have to be at about $50/gallon before
     I start taking public transportation to work. For those whose time is
     worth $5/hour, public transportation would be worth their while. 

     The smart society would price gasoline appropriately to start weeding
     people out economically for public transportation. The crude society
     (sorry for the pun) would do nothing and let the extreme environmentalists
     make us feel guilty. No can do. I absolutely refuse -- out of principle
     and out of pure stubborness -- to be strongarmed into abandoning my
     vehicle for anything but economic reasons.

Raising the gasoline taxes has been something I've wished to see for many 
years. Among the population as a whole, it is amazingly unpopular.
I am surprised and delighted at how many positive responses I've seen here.

<sigh>
I wish I could stop driving.  I try to avoid it as much as I can by
walking or biking whenever that's feasable.  Unfortunately, I still end up
putting in a few hundred miles per week in the car, including a weekly 80
mile round trip to Detroit.  If we had a good public transportation system
I would be able to greatly reduce my car use.  I'd love to be able to
support a gas tax increase, but without a good public transportation
system I just can't afford it.

I can hardly believe it: I agree 93.4% with what rogue says in #16.
(The exception is that I think he should walk... ;->)

I am not an environmental extremist.  Americarians are just extremely
irresponsible and indolent.  You, rogue, are soulless, putting in down
to an economic matter.  I'm sure you earn $50./hour ripping people off.
Chicago Taxi Willie

His motives are irrelevent - just be glad that he has the right idea.

The #1 reason to use the entergy saving appliances, showerheads, compact
flourescents, etc. is to save $$$$, and incidentally slightly reduce you
long term environmental impact.  Most "green" thingy-bobs pay back in your
electric bill in a year or so, or water, or new incandescent bulbs that burn
out faster.  
I also occasionally ride the bus to work; it takes 30 minutes instead of 15
driving, and sometimes the downtown connection misses, but it is really 
useful to *know* how to ride the bus.  One morning my car didn't start;
and I knew exactly where&when to catch the bus and still get to work.  Last
night my dad's car died so today he has mine while I ride the bus...which
I would not have even thought of previously.

This response has been erased.

It's unfortunate that such a gigantic majority never experience mass transit in
any form.  People just continue to become more isolated ... sad, & frightening!

I'm surprised that no one hear has mentioned the economic impact of a
much higher gas tax.  One of the reasons we don't have that here is
that the automobile and petroleum industries are such a big part of our
economies.  Where are all the auto workers and oil workers put out of
work by a higher gas tax going to find employment?

Driving buses, working in the new jobs that will be created by the lower cost
of living as people are able to go from 2 or 3 car families to 1 or 2 car 
families.

Let me expand on #26:  Americans spend a huge amount on automobiles, and
that doesn't cover all the costs.  Gas taxes pretty much cover federal and
state highways, but local streets and their maintainance are paid for by 
property taxes.  Add in the expense of all the land that is used for parking,
both for the cost of land and the increased cost of commuting because that 
tends to make things more spread out, therefore the distance of your trip, be
it by car or public transit, is increased.  The medical costs of the deaths
and injuries.  I'm sure there's much more, but I'm tired right now.  Look ata
the cost of driving:  Just think how much you pay per month on your car 
payment, insurance, maintaince, repairs and gas.  In Chicago, until recently,
you could get a bus pass for $73./mo. which would take you anywhere in the
city or suburbs on bus or el or subway, except the heavy commuter rail from
the distant suburbs into downtown.  99% of Chicago is within 2 blocks, 1/4
mile, of a bus stop.  Now that $73. is subsidized, I'm not sure how much, bu
but I think 50%= c.$150 / month for your complete transit expense.  
Unfortunately, because so many people lent out their passes out to friends or
outright forged the passes, they have been discontinued.  I would hope they 
would go to a permanent pass w. photo id like drivers license, "rechargable"
at banks, but that hasn't happened yet.  Meanwhile, you can still save 
money by buying tokens.
As you can see, the overall societal cost of transportation is much cheaper
the public way, even w. drivers getting good union scale, because of the 
common use and longer life of transit equipment and the savings in energy
costs.
That results in an overall reduction in your cost of living.  Talk about a 
whopping tax break!  That, in turn, results in both lower costs of goods and
services and increased savings, resulting in more investment and creation of
jobs.  It works!

   I can't disagree about the horrid aspects of cars.  Having been
involved in a very bad car accident when I was six, I know all too
well how bad it is.  And even with alternative fuels or hydrogen
fueled electric cars wouldn't stop the accident problem much.  Its
one of these seemingly endless problems that we have yet to solve.
There are some problems with mass transit however, and they can't
be overlooked.  They only really work in high-density areas to be
really effective.  By the time you get to rural Iowa, mass transit
becomes a real pain.  The trains work quite well in the Netherlands,
but once you get to the little towns in the south (currently being
flooded) you get lots of people who grouse about the lack of available
transportation services.

   Maybe it was kt8k who mentioned population reduction as the real
solution to the problem?  I definately agree.

   Lastly, the things like shower savers *are* a good idea.  Given the
fact that America uses about 20% of the worlds current energy supply,
even shaving a few percent off our total consumption can be the equivenalt
of many other poorer countries.  Quite a thought.

Danr asked that insidious question, in #25,  that tends to bring all
efforts to conserve, slow resource depletion, control pollution, etc,
to a halt: they will cause unemployment. Of course, that's because
we have designed an economic system that *depends* upon continuous
expansion of population, economic activity, consumption, more population,
more... This system cannot go on forever, of course, so it is
VERY IMPORTANT that you put on your rose colored glasses, and your
blinders, and not look down the road more than 20 years (if that). 

I can't think of a worse reason to keep the Gas Tax low than to make sure
that all those petroleum workers don't lose their jobs. They have to lose
their jobs if we are to make any progress in the battle to use less gasoline.

#18: You still don't understand. If the gasoline tax were raised, public
     transportation will "magically" appear. It's called the invisible hand
     of the free market.

#20: I earn $50+/hr because I'm just that many times smarter than peasants
     like you.

     There's no responsibility if there's no accountability. If no one is
     held *fully* accountable for the results of their gasoline usage, no
     one is going to be responsible for it. Your begging and pleading will
     accomplish nothing. Economic accountability works every time.

#17: I don't mind a gasoline tax because it taxes based on usage. Income 
     tax is bullshit because it taxes based on ability and work. 

#23: Mass transit in NY and Toronto are very different than mass transit in
     Ann Arbor. Often, it is cheaper to take mass transit from the 'burbs in
     Toronto to downtown -- cheaper and *faster* also. There's no such 
     advantage in Ann Arbor or Detroit.

#25: How many tears have you shed for the workers in the slide-ruler 
     industry who were laid off?

#27: No one is arguing against public transit. I have stated that I used to
     use it all the time in Toronto and it was effective. All we're saying 
     is that the reason few are using public transit around here is economic
     (very little economic incentive) and to change that you have to 
     set up some economic incentives. So simple.

We have lots of "HOV" (high occupancy vehicle) or carpool lanes here.  I
think they discriminate against working moms.  I was in a vanpool when I
lived 50 miles from the office and had no kids.  It was economical but
no less isolating than my auto.  Plus, I was afraid for my life with 
some of the drivers.  

Now I live 8 miles from the office.  When my kid threw up at school on
Friday, I could say "I'll be there in 15 minutes".   I can't afford to
wait 30 min for a bus that may or may not show up, and then ride for 
45 minutes, walk 20 minutes to the school, and walk the kid home.
Suburban America jus isn't a quaint, close European city.

If I had to get my kid to the dr, there isno public transportation!

Parenthood in the 'burbs rquires the personal auto.

As for isolation as a result of our hermetically sealed vehicles, they
allow for more eye contact than commuting on the NYC subway!

And you really upset me with your talk of overpopulation.  The US has 
a labor shortage now.  God willing, I plan to have a 4th child.
My kids are blessings on society.  The druggie's kids may overpopulate
their neighborhoods and drain society's resources, there may be a
problem in Bombay, but among legal US residents and citizens the
overopulation problem is a myth put out by people who don't have enough
love in their hearts to handle kids.  Okay.  I overreacted.  But people 
are really part of the solution, not the problem.  And I'm not Catholic.
I'm Jewish, and even with my 4 kids, myextended family's size will not
equal what it wasbefore the Holocaust.  (I'm assuming I will be lucky
enough to have #4 there).

   But what if your children all have four children?  We *can't* go
on thinking like that.  We simply have too many people here at the
moment, and the only possible solution I can see to relieving it,
that of true space colonization is seen as only rediculous fantasy
by most people.
   The labor shortage is because of a lack of people qualified to
do certain tasks, not that we do not have enough people, if they
were willing and educated to do things.
   Lastly, there are *huge* problems on the west coast with American
population.  Where do you think LA gets it water from?  Not from the
local area.  They get it from hundreds of miles away, causing problems
far removed from Los Angelicans.  But the problem remains.
   We have too many people on this planet.

        Yes overpopulation is a very big problem even here in the U.S.
Why do you think we only have 5% of our original old growth forest
left here in the U.S.
        re # 32 You don't need to live in the suburbs, it is your
*desire* to live in the burbs far from your job that creates your
        If everyone had your attitude we would soon be living on a
planet with 15 billion people, then we all would get a tast of the
misery subsaharan africans experience every day.

I am not saying that we shouldn't have a higher gas tax.  I'm simply
saying that one of the reasons we don't is that auto workers and
petroleum workers vote and I can't think of any politician that is
going  to be willing to vote for a higher tax and risk alienating
these workers.  Do you honestly think a candidate who says he is going
to eliminate  automotive industry jobs is going to get elected?

I also think you're underestimating the number of jobs that are going
to be created.  The auto industry is a HUGE component of the US
economy.  To eliminate it, you're going to have to convince a LOT of
people to accept a lower standard of living.  Good luck with that.

That is, in fact, the key to the problem.  Somehow, you're going to
have to convince people that it's better for them to forego the
freedom  offered by their automobiles and get them to  accept a lower
standard of living.  Call me cynical, but I don't see that happening.

Yes, auto related jobs, including parts makers, mechanics, and gas station
operators make up 14% (1 of 7) jobs in the U.S.  But even if we had the most
gee wizz transit system (and there's a beauty in development), there's going 
to be some autos around for many years to come.  Revolutions, especially 
involving voluntary changes in life styles, do not happen over night.  What
we'll be seeing is each family's stable of cars shrinking in size.  First
daddy commutes by bus, and doesn't replace his car when it wears out.  Then
junior discovers that, contrary to what most believe, there is more freedom
travelling by pub trans that w. 3000 pounds on your back that you have to 
find a parking space for, keep in repair, and use excess money that can be
spent on computer games.  This "freedom of the automobile" is one of the 
greatest myths that has to be broken.  That's why I say, go to Chicago w/o a
car.  Maybe not as radically as I earlier suggested, moving there, just visit
4th of July weekend this summer and go to the Chicago Blues Festival.  Take
Amtrak, not the plane (planes are as energy inefficient as cars).  Take the
Howard subway to the end of the line (Howard Stree), and transfer to the 
Evanston shuttle and wander around Evanston and Northwestern U. and the 
lakefront.  Then get back on the Ev. Shut. ango farther to the end of the
line in Wilmette, and again walk to the lake and see the B'hai Temple, a 
very beautiful structure and home of the B'hai faith in America.  Then 
reverse your trip and ride back south to Lincoln Park (Fullerton Avenue stop,
2400 North).  Walk two blocks east on Fullerton and your at the six-corners of
Lincoln/Fullerton/Halstead, the center of an entertainment district that was
the hippie area in the late 60's and early 70's and still has some of the
theaters and bars from that era.  Wander, wander (it's safe at night), and
then tell be that you're freer with an automobile (good luck finding a 
parking space if you cheat on me and drive there).
And remember, if you think the $1.50 fare is expensive, you don't even know
how much your car costs you.  That $1.50 will get you on a hundred miles of
el & subway and thousands of miles of bus routes.  You can ride way out into 
the suburbs on that $1.50, and remember, the Chicagoland is much bigger, both
in land area covered and population than Detroit and environs.  Get on the 
front car of the trains you ride, and sit in the front seat of the car, and
you can pretend you're the motorman.

#32: You can have 200 kids for all I care, just as long as I don't ever have
     to pay for them. 

#33: The solution would be to give tax breaks to families with two or fewer
     children -- significant tax breaks funded by families with three or
     more children.

#35: The "freedom offered by their automobiles" is a luxury, not a right. 
     No one has a right to own and drive a car. One has the luxury if one
     can afford it. 

     The economies of Japan and Germany -- the second and third largest
     economies in the world -- do not seem to be suffering from $5/gallon
     gasoline prices. 

     Higher gasoline prices may cause a change in American society and
     industry. So be it. Currently, we are mortgaging our futures and our
     environment for immediate profit. This is not acceptable.

        Hey I think this is a first I agree with everything Rogue says
in # 37!

It means you are seeing the light. :-)

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss