This is Chicago Taxi Willie.  I started a discussion on Hippie Conference as
to whether it would be a good idea to start a conference on Environmentally
Friendly Living.  Topics would include using public transportation (and 
politicing to make it better, or starting bus co-ops), apartments, townhouses
and cluster houses vs. detached, heat the atmosphere, houses, and co-op
housing and co-op condominiums.  The original entry is in Hippie #52, where
a little bit of a discussion of the issues has started, but no one has 
commented on the question of whether to start a Conference on the subject.
Please address this last issue here on agora, put debate on issues on 
Hippie #52.  Thanks.     My apologies, this should have gone on co-op
conference.

40 responses total.

Do you feel that the "little bit" of discussion in Hippie #52 would
become a greater and more diverse discussion if there was a conference
with multiple items devoted to this subject?  

Some people don't read Hippie.  I feel there are (or should be) enough people
out there who care enough about mother nature (and our own lungs and economy)
to support a distinct conference.
Chicago Taxi Willie

Chicago Taxi Wille must have leather lungs!
How about natural gas to power our vehivcles?

It sounds like an interesting idea, but I doubt that I'd participate
in such a conference.

   I'm willing to give it a try.  It's certainly a different idea
for a conference.

I'll be checking it out.

        I would be very much for said conf. I fair witness the earth conf over
at m-net, and i would participate activeley over here!

[Item 78 in summer agora is now linked as item 15 in Coop.]

I thought environmentally friendly living was part of the idealized
`hippie' lifestyle.  Is there enough activity on grex to support
such a specialized conference?

We seem to be having a lot of splinter conferences lately, for some reason.
I think the answer is "maybe but I doubt it".

Environmentally friendly living has nothing to do with hippies. It would
concern using the least resources to satisfy ones needs and wishes. There
is a great deal that individuals can do to "Waste Less, Want Less". This
need not be deprivation: anything you *like* doing can be done more
efficiently, use fewer resources, and leave more for the future. We just]
had a "high efficiency" (90%+) furnace installed in our house. We already
kept our winter temperature low, and eschewed A/C ( until this summer 8->).
We put our lights on X-10 controllers, which saves noticeablly on the
electric bill. I wish more could be recycled. If these are the subject
of the proposed conference, I am all for it.

Sort of a Mother Earth News conference...

Out of curiosity, what is an "X-10 Controller"?

A box that controls lights and appliances via modules that plug into
the house wiring system, allowing you to turn them on and off, dim the
lights, etc.

X-10 is known in Radio Shack as "Plug'n'Power". One needs the computer
programmed interface to use the system to save electricity. You don't
have to remember to turn off the lights that are on the system. Also,
I run all the outside lights at 80% "dim", saving both watts and 
extending the life of the bulbs. 

I'm still not certain where you save your money.  If you run your 100
watt bulbs at 80%, why not just replace them with 20 watt bulbs?  Or
am I missing something here?
 
What does this X-10 controller do that you don't do anyway?  If you
turn lights on when you enter a room and turn them off when you leave
normally, where would you save the electricity by having this system?

   Well, for one thing, 80w bulbs don't exist.  And if you run a 100w
bulb at 80%, you can always turn it to brighter-than-normal use.  With
an X-10 controller, you can time things more easily, and through an
interface control them from the telephone.

The system's intended purpose has nothing to do with energy conservation.
The X-10 system is for remote controll of 120vac lines. You replace your
wall switch, or wall outlet with an X-10 module. You can also get modules
that plug into existing wall outlets. They are designed to watch for a
carrier wave signal that is broadcast over the house wiring. You can 
turn any so equiped light, on, off, dim to any brightness, turn all lights
on, turn everything off. You can also get many different control modules.
1 can be hooked up to a computer on a serial line, 1 is hooked to a phone
line. You can call in and turn things on and off.

But the *effect* is energy conservation - because we could not remember to
always turn off all the outside lights in the morning, or even some of
the inside lights. It had a noticeable effect on our electric bill, which
is the "bottom line", for whatever reason. We use 62 watt outside lights -
you need minimum lighting for safety. Turning them down still provides
enough light, but extends the life of the bulb considerably. (I suppose
one way of expressing the energy savings is that it is the result of
the computer having more *discipline* than we do.)

Re:17, but 75W bulbs do exist.  Close enuf.  You really don't need to
automate everything if you can remember (and are willing) to turn things
on and off (and dimmers will dim lights just as easily).  However, most
of us aren't so mechanical...like Rane says, computers have more discipline.
Besides, this is the couch potato era.  You gotta have everything 
controllable via a button nearby (or better yet, have your computer do
the thinking).

Should this be moved to the environmentalism conference?
(sf sf)

Yes.  The conf. is now up.

Its not an energy saving matter - but the light control system continues
to function when everyone is away - a security bonus.

That's a definite plus.

This response has been erased.

The X-10 "controller" for a thermostat is antediluvian: it is a *heater*
that one sticks to the wall below the thermostat, and the X10 system turns
on the heater to turn "down" the thermostat. Ugh. I use a programmable
thermostat. It is also very much worth the investment, and is very
flexible. However they are something like the VCR - in cartoons. We had
a new furnace installed and the technician had to turn on the heat and/or
A/C. I felt sorry for him after watching him trying to figure out the
thermostat, so volunteered. He seemed glad to let me run it.

Programmable thermostat was one the the best I could give to the house,
and me.  The old manual one would heat for too long, then allow coling
(not on) for too long.  Much more consistent control.  Plus its great
to have the house warmed up by the time I'm home from work on those
cold winter days.

So is this environmentally friendly living, or what?

Hmm.  Being able to turn the lights on and off over the phone sounds
interesting, especially when other people are home...

I have used the X-10 devices for saveral years.  Their most useful aspect
was when I built an iterface between our phone and doorbell so that when
one rings, lights come on.  The lights flash with the rings of the phone and
come on for 15 sec. and then turn off when the doorbell is rung.  My wife
is deaf and building the interface was *much* cheaper and more flexable
than the stuff they sell through catalogs with stuff for hearing impared.
 
We have dimmer switches on most of our room lights and use compact flurocent
in a few places.  Energy wise, your better off using a flurocent at full
brighness then an incandescent on a dimmer.  Our outside lights are on pasive
infared sensors.  That way they only come on when they sense someone/thing
in their field of view.

I had several failures of outside sensors. I also concluded that they
make the home not as "lived in" as programmed outside lights. 

We've got one of those outside motion sensor lights.  It was programmed
by the same guy that dreamed up Murphy's Law.  The darn thing works
whenever you don't want it to (like after you've already walked up a
dark drive and gotten in the back door).   I hope they aren't all like
that.

Odd, the three I have work just fine.  However our neighbor has one that's
more of long period strobe light.  I do have problems with my X-10 modules
every now and then.  It seems one of our neighbors also has a X-10 system
and we must be on the same pole transformer.  I guess I need to find a low
pass filter for power coming into the house ;)

Change your house codes. Go on a LW Foxhunt, and reach an agreement
with the neighbor. I considered this possible problem, and avoided 
using house code A, thinking a large fraction of users would just
use A. Otherwise - do you think it would be possible to put a filter
at the service entrance? Say, a hefty ferrite slug around the lines?

I have done just that.  I use an odd letter code and then each module has
a different number code.  Since I want to turn them all on, I control the
"All ON" and "All OFF" buttons.
 
I tried pulgging my controller in one night and hitting the "All ON" 
and "All OFF" buttons to see who's house I could "control" in hopes of
identifying the person with the other X-10 system.   I tried all the letter
codes but was unable to find the source.  I haven't had any problems in
the last half year, knock on wood.

I do observe "intermittants", where a light might not come on, or might
not go off. These are rare, and I ascribe them to other interference
(motors, what have you), though I have no correlation with anything. Do
you know precisely what the code is? I recall that it transmitted a
code during the zero-crossing of the power circuit - but I don't have
any document that I can find that describes this. 
(It occurs to me, that there is an X-10 item elsewhere - in hardware
or somewhere - and it might be useful to append these X-10 items there,
before Summer Agora goes bye bye. I would not know how to do this
efficiently - but I could look for that Item.)

Worse than that: this drift is semi-permanently enshrined in coop, too.

I looked for an item I think I called something like "X-10 Ology", but
its gone. I've noticed along the way that there has been a lot of
pruning in radio, where I thought I had put it. They have a busy
FW, who works in the night. 

It was mentioned earlier that these X-10 lights could be controlled over the
phone.  Who else knows the code to do that?

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss