YUCH!

55 responses total.

We have foam from our washing machine coming back up the clean-out port in
the basement. This was an iron pipe with an iron screwed-in plug, but when
we had it reamed out once, it was totally rusted together, so it was
broken out down maybe 6 inches, and now there is just a plastic plug
sitting in the pipe end (which is in concrete). Our sewer line is ca. 60
feet to the main so foam has a hard time getting through it, and it backs
up around the ill-fitting plug, mounds on the basement flow around the
port, and then drains off to a floor drain. I'd like ideas for sealing
this port in a manner that would also make opening relatively easy for any
time it needs reaming. I have thought of several ways:

1. Grease the sides of the hole and pour it full with plaster or concrete
(on top of the plastic plug). This would be broken out when it has to be
opened again.

2. Obtain a short piece of plastic sewer pipe end with female threads and
set this in (with epoxy?), and use the threaded plug to get a good seal. 
However, if it ever needs cleaning, I'm afraid the power snake would make
mincemeat of the plastic.

3. Shove a largish foam-rubber ball down the cleanout opening - maybe with
a cord through it for removal.

Any other ideas?

The power snake won't mess up the first few inches of pipe, so plastic should
be fine.

Rane, I am not clear as to your comment about the pipe being "broken out down
maybe 6 inches . . "  One thing you could do is to cut the pipe cleanly and
splice a new pipe above it.  They make rubber splicing fixtures which are 
encased in stainless steel band clamps for this purpose.  From the splice,
you could replace the cleanout and re-join it to the existing plumbing.  The
replacement pipe could be in pvc.  

In any case, if you are getting foam, you have the potential of getting lethal
fumes.

btw, if you want to cut black iron sewer pipe, rent a professional pipecutter,
you can't hacksaw that stuff.  The pipe cutter has a chain with carbide wheel
inserts and a racheting device to increase the force with which the carbide
inserts press into the circumferrence of the pipe.  When it breaks, it makes
a very loud "pop" and the cut is neat and square.  

The cast iron street el is buried in the concrete floor. It was originally
installed so the plug was flush with the floor. However this was all
excavated down about six inches when they had to get the plug out.Some of
the pipe end broke off too.  Now the accessible end of the pipe is
surrounded by concrete. I don't want to excavate more concrete (it will
probably go into earth, actually) to expose enough pipe to put on a
collar.

Doesn't the whole power-snake turn when reaming a sewer line? This tuning
against the side of a plastic pipe end would abrade it, and certainly
would muck up threads. 

Well, couldn't you fabricate some sort of "collar" that the snake runs thru?

True (if not easy) - good idea that reopens that option.

Just take some sheet metal (how about some stovepipe?), make a cylinder with
some of the metal on one end of the cylinder folded out to keep it from
falling in?

When gluing plastic pipe, use the solvent/adhesive stuff you can get for the
purpose at most hardware stores.  Don't use epoxy.  If the epoxy doesn't 
dissolve the plastic slightly, it won't hang on very well.
 
I've also seen king-size soda bottle stoppers with a big toggle handle on top.
When the handle is flipped it compresses the rubber puck in the pipe, creating
a seal.  Would that work for what your trying to do?  How about a Nerff ball?

I found something like that toggle thingy at HQ this afternoon. A rubber ring
is expanded between two tapered plates as a wingnut is tightened. I have to
clear out some bits of concrete that still get in the way before I can give
it a test. (Once I get this thing sealed, though, I lose my drain for my
basement dehumidifier....one darn thing after 'nuther.)

Perhaps you could fabricate some sort of "U" shaped tube into your plug.
It wouldn't have to be large dia. tubing since the output of your
dehumidifier is low, (3/8" Cu pipe?) and water in the bottom of the trap
would prevent gases (and washer foam) from getting out.

I will consider that, vs just checking the dehumidifier and emptying it when
it is too full. 

I have installed the wing-nut thingy, after wire-brushing off the rust and
concrete from the end of the pipe. The 4-inch pipe plug just fits. I put
plumber's putty in the remaining threads and under the top plate flange,
for a good seal. NOW...to watch where the foam comes out next... 8^{. 

I have had problems with roots growing into our sewer line (the same one
as above) and causing backup. Last July I put 8 ounces of copper sulfate
down the sewer and let it "soak" overnight. I intend to repeat the
application again in the spring. Some questions about the procedure: 

1. Copper sulfate is sold around town for this use, but I would not think
it is too good for the sludge from the sewage treatment plant - or maybe a
little is a good thing (?). Anyone know whether it is even allowed to be
used?

2.  What are alternative treatments that don't use copper? 

3.  Copper sulfate reacts with iron pipe to dissolve some iron and deposit
some copper - not as a 'plate' but as a loose copper powder. This corrodes
the pipe, so one doesn't want to do this too often. How often is too
often?

4.  I know copper is toxic to plant roots, but is it toxic to the trees
putting down the roots? Has anyone ever harmed a tree by using copper
sulfate in their sewer line?

5.  Does it work primarily by direct contact with the roots that get into
the line, or does it leak out into the surrounding soil (via the gaps
through which roots entered), and work there?

6.  How long is a treatment effective? 

7.  Presuming that two treatments per year will be used - what are the
optimum dates for those applications? When are the roots most active in
extending themselves and seeking out moisture sources? 

8.  What is the optimum method of application? The instructions on ROOTO
say to use 8 ounces and flush into the line with 5 gallons of water. Since
our sewer line is long, I made two consecutive applications of 4 ounces,
flushing each with 2.5 gallons of water. I left it like that for at least
a few hours. (The instructions say to "not allow Rooto...to remain in
contact with metal for any length of time", but "any length" is not
defined.) 

Good questions.  I don't know the answers but I have heard that you can
kill a tree by driving copper tacks around the trunks circumference.
(BTW, I have the same problem with my sewer line out to the street.)

Rane, the way copper sulfate acts is to inhibit photosynthesis.  Thus it will
kill the plant by robbing it of its ability to produce food.  I don't think
it has any direct short term effect on the roots.  I think the
proprietary
stuff sold kills roots locally, but I don't know what this stuff is.  

As for sewage treatment, I know most firms who plate copper are asked by the
city to put in special treatment to precipitate out metals before release of
their effluent to the city.  Some cities which have "tertiary" treatment of
sewage, do not make this request, but I do not know what treatment level Ann
Arbor has.

ROOTO and all the other brands list the contents as copper sulfate
(pentahydrate). There is no warning on the bottle about affecting plants
growing in the vicinity. There is a warning about toxicity to aquatic
organisms (from bacteria to fish). Copper is an essential mineral and there
are diseases due to copper deficiency. Perhaps the low concentrations that
result from domestic use are not a problem for a sewage treatment plant
(steady discharge from a plating factory would be). I haven't found anything
yet on its toxicity (or essentiallity) to plant. (Sounds like a decent Science
Fair project!)

I used to work in a powder metal (Iron) facility and word got around that the
powdered iron worked wonders on the yard and garden.  One guy smuggled a bunch
of it out that had 3% Copper in it and tossed it liberally around his yard.
It was completely defoliated within a short time. (I never heard if it ever
grew back).

There must have been something else in it besides iron and copper. However
the oxidation of iron produces a somewhat alkaline mixture, which might be
deleterious to plants. 

I have now found that copper is an essential plant nutrient also. In both
animals and plants it serves as the metal in some enzymes. I recall that
some marine creature has copper as the metal in its green blood cells. 
Copper is less toxic than I had been thinking. Incidentally, it doesn't
just interfer with photosynthesis (if it does that) - copper sulfate is
especially toxic to fungi and bacteria, neither of which engage in
photosynthesis.

But, too much of anything is a bad thing....and it does kill tree roots
-somehow. 

what ever you say, Rane.

This item has been linked from Dwellings 11 to Intro 144.
Type "join dwellings" at the Ok: prompt for discussion of
sewers, and other things one finds in one's abode.

Well, I was wrong.  Copper is essential in photosynthesis and there are plenty
of articles about copper deficiency in food crops.  Also, there are articles
about copper fertilizers (must be the blue (copper sulfate) in Mir-acid). 
Also, a web search can find articles about copper toxicity of plants and
poisining of aquatic weeds with copper sulfate, but I did not see anything
about the mechanism of toxicity.  

My experience with the powder metal was that people who (stole) iron and put
it on their plants had rapid dark green growth.  Those who mistakenly had the
mixture with copper had plant death.  The only other ingredients were graphite
and sodium stearate.  All materials were "flour-like" particle size.

(Copper is part of the photosynthetic reaction using an enzyme called
cyanoplastin as part of a reaction mechanism to transfer electrons)

Well no, you weren't wrong..you agreed with me in #18   ;->

So, when is the propitious moment to send CuSO4 down the sewer line?

There were several warnings about CuSO4 regarding it's toxicity to fish.  This
was dependent on the alkalinity of the water.  

By the time the copper reaches the treatment plant it would be converted to
the *very* insoluble copper sulfide, and incorporated into the sludge. Maybe
this is why they don't worry about it affecting the plant operation.

Does anyone know of a "check valve" for a basement floor drain? In 1994 our
basement was flooded 16" deep in sewage when the streetsewer backed up
(augmented by a sudden heavy spring rainstorm). We haven't forgotten this
incident! If it were to happen again, the basement floor drain would be where
it would come in. I am thinking of installing a check valve in the drain, so
an interior flood would drain, but liquid could not back up. Say, a rubber
ball that hangs below a smaller pipe, and floats up and seals the pipe if
a backup occurs. Any ideas?

I think you are asking for trouble installing a check valve in your floor
drain. What will probably happen is your check valve will clog up just when
you need it and not let any water drain out. Think about the location--dark,
under the floor, constantly wet, probably gradually filling up with slime.
The idea of the floor drain is to have as unobstructed passage to the sewer
as you can, not put things in that might, over time obstruct the flow..

That's a hazard - to be judged in comparison with the hazard it is meant to
mitigate. You give me some suggestions on how to do it, and I will decide
between the options - to do nothing, or to proceed with a particular design.

Jim just helped Tim replace his sump pump and they noticed that someone had,
probably accidentally, disabled the check valve, which is in a horizontal
position followed (on the way out of the house) by a nipple and a 90 degree
angle.  Rather than replace the nipple, is there any reason not to remove both
nipple and angle and install the valve vertically?  THe valve is about a foot
up off the floor and supposedly keeps the sump pump from running as often due
to backflow.  Is gravity important to a check valve?  Jim fixed the check
valve by removing the pin, putting the flap into the proper position, and
replacing the pin.  (There are a few other problems left to fix, which I will
let Tim tell us about).

        I am thinking it would be too much of a back-flow to check if the
check valve was changed from horizontal to vertical.  Any other thoughts?

        After doing some laundry, where the outbound water from the washer
now goes directly to the sump pit, instead of into a laundry tub that was
acting as a funnel to only allow so much water get to the pit at any one
time; that the pump, once activiated does do a quick job of reducing the
water level.  Howver, it also seems to move enough that I am getting flow
up my bathtub, nearby upstairs (also getting the stink); and I it is 
affecting the toilet, causing the bowl to empty.  So it seems that the
on cycle might be too long.  What are your thoughts?  The pump says that
it turns on at 14 inches of water and off at 6 inches of water.
        First, I don't like the level to get as high as that 14"; particularly
if it was damp earth, rainy day type of gentle build up.  It seems that
the nearby dehumidifer would be working double duty on humid summer days
and not keep the basement dry.
        Is it the amount of water it is pumping part of what would cause
some to make it to the bathtub and toilet?
        Okay, the cycle just ran 22 seconds, and the pump is rated at 
moving 3,000 gallons per hour, working against the garden hose, instead
of working against the washing machine pump; so I will say a cycle to
get rid of laundry water is 30 seconds.  a 120 half minutues, thats
25 gallons per cycle--14inches down to 6inches.

Tim, isn't there a cover over the sump pit?  If not, you can make one, which
will reduce humidity.  I would not want a pond in my basement.

Jim says yes there should be a cover.  The problems you are experiencing with
the new sump pump are related to its being 1/2 instead of 1/4 h. p. and your
drain is somewhat clogged so the pump is pumping the water into instead of
just out of the system.  And there is a right-angle tap into the toilet.  He
will figure out some clever solution Thursday evening.

Lets get the terms right here  A sump pump pumps clear water, from the footing
perimeter drain, out of the house.  A sewage ejector pumps gray water or
sewage into the sewage system.  It sounds to me like you are talking about
an ejector pump.  The reason that it backs up into your tub, sink and drains
the toilet is because it is pumping too great a volume of water for the drain
pipes to handle.  The drain is filling up with water, and even backing up,
because the volume is so high.  When it stops pumping, and the water drains
out of the full pipes it also drains the toilet because the pipe you filled
should having some air in it.  Since there isn't any, the water draining out
will siphon out the toilet bowl.  It's called wet venting.  When you exceed
the capacity of a wet vented drain, these sorts of things happen.

To solve the problem, either reduce the flow from the ejector or eject into
a point where you will not exceed the capacity of the pipe.  It is also a good
idea (As well as code) to tie into the drain pipe with a Y and not a T.  A
Y will encourage it to flow out, if installed with the V part of the Y
pointing out.  A T will cause the pipe to fill in many situations.

The one way valve should work in a vertical section as well as in a horizontal
section of pipe.  It is water pressure that opens and closes it, not gravity.
However, gravity causes the backflow water pressure ;-)  If you do install
it horizontally, I'd suggest installing it such that the flap valve hinge
point is up, allowing the valve to hang down.

Also, an ejector sump should have a gas-tight seal.  (I have a propperly
installed ejector system in our house should you want to look at a properly
done system.)

It is currently horizontal and the plan was to make it vertical (the valve)
so as not to have to replace a leaky piece but rather discard it.  Jim was
talking about the T problem and the same solution, but first may try simply
cleaning the sewer so that the pump will have more space to pump through.
Tim did not mention this, but in the process of replacing the sump pump, some
old piping had to be forced off (it had been installed cross-threaded) then
the laundry tub would not drain off the dirty water he had emptied into it
and Jim tried to snake it out but it had one of those valves that you are
supposed to open from the bottom to clean out (like a bathtub - I forget the
name).  In order to get at either the sump pit or the laundry tub, Tim had
to pry off a bunch of siding someone had decorated the area with, one piece
at a time from one end as it overlapped. Then Jim discovered that the iron
pipe going into the concrete from the tub, along with the tub legs, was rusted
almost to nothing, so instead of cleaning out the tub drain they bypassed it
with an assortment of plastic hoses, rigid and flexible, and the laundry now
drains directly into the sump pit until they can replace the tub (which can
drain above the concrete).  Another pipe above that is nearly rusted through
and needs replacing, as does the kitchen sink faucet.  Plumbing repairs on
old houses are never straightforward.  Jim will be out tomorrow with a
substitute tub, a replacement faucet (Kiwanis special) and lots of plastic
piping, which does not rust out, and glue, his snake collection, etc.
        Tim gave Jim a nice book on vegan cooking from Borders.
The recipes were a lot more appetizing than the stuff coming out of the sewer.

I was wondering why a sump pump would not just pump outside, with no
connection back into any other drains. When is a "ejector pump"
needed, Klaus? If you have a basement shower or toilet but your
sewer pipe (or septic tank entrance) is higher? If that is the case,
wouldn't separate lines to the sewer or tank be the best? (I've never lived
anywhere where that is necessary, hence my ignorance - our house has its
sewer pipe below the basement floor level.)

The basement laundry would not work without the pump.
The thing under the laundry tub is a drum trap.  They use them in bathtubs
so people can retrieve lost rings.
Tim has a septic tank out back.

Ah - so it is really just a laundry pump, to get the waste up to the
tank (as Klaus said). Why not pipe it to the tank separately?

        The pit was encased in this cabinet thing until I had to dismantle
the thing to get to the pit and the plumbing.
        I seen a pump at Sears that is 1/3 horsepower, is submerseable, and
has a float switch that looks like it would (and could) have a shorter
range between turning on and turning off, thus a shorter on time and less
volume of water per run.
        Home Depot may end up with the current new one trying to be 
returned.

Jim just found a used sump pump at Kiwanis, should he bring it along?
And he can fix your old one if you prefer.  Simple fix.

Part of the reason that Tim's laundry tub stand and plumbing were rusted out
may be that this 'cabinet thing' maintained a very humid atmosphere in the
area over the uncovered sump pump - water evaporated and could not escape to
the rest of the basement.  Probably condense on the nearest cold surfaces.
A cover would keep down humidity.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss