Please use this item for questions about or descriptions of how you fixed your
refrigerator, freezer, stove, water heater, dehumidifier, furnace, water
heater, and other things not easily lifted with one hand.

100 responses total.

Maybe this goes in the previous item.  There was a lot of water condensing
and dripping in the furnace closet from the air conditioning equipment.  I
got it to drip into the drain pipe by running strings from the drip point to
a weight in the top of the drain pipe.  The water climbs down the strings and
no more wet floor.

That sounds like how we got water to pour cleanly out of a beaker by placing
a glass rod across the top of it and the water followed the rod.  We are
thinking of using some sort of chain instead of or in addition to a roof
gutter, I hear it is done in Japan to channel the water.

I'm having a hard time picturing what you mean.  A hole and a chain instead
of the downspout?  With a sufficiently sized hole to prevent plugging this
could be very cool.

You cannot get a large flow to follow a string/rod/chain. Once the thickness
of the water flowing down the <thing> is great enough, gravity forces will
exceed surface tension forces and first drops and then a stream will flow
off the <thing>.

Well, while I am at it, over many years I have:
Replaced a furnace motor (and then replaced the furnace six months later,
but kept the motor).
Replaced the defrost timer in a refrigerator.
Replaced the inlet water valve in a dishwasher.
Got the Amana manual to try to figure out how to fix the source of water
accumulating in the bottom of the refrigerator and not going into the
defrost-water evaporation plan, but the problem fixed itself (this is
a very good way of getting things fixed if you can tolerate the problem
for a while....).
Replaced the blower motor in a dehumidifier.

re your first paragraph:
        Right, but if you have a small flow that doesn't get big, it will work
fine.  It sounds like that's what's going on in this case.

You can use a chain to keep the water flowing straight down regardless of flow
rate (within reason, of course).  Japanese and Norwegian architecture both
use chains instead of downspouts.  

My statement that it will not work at large flows is for flows that exceed
reason - i.e., when the flow no longer follows the chain. Incidentally, have
you seen the chain systems in action? Does NO water fall off them in
any kind of weather (say, high wind, deluges, etc)?

Scott, could you provide details on how the chain works?  We hope to create
some sort of projection from the edge of the roof, to which to attach the
chain, which will sort of funnel the water downwards.  (Jim was unable to
explain his idea very clearly).  But perhaps this should go in some other
item, can you think of a good title for items on diy for house exteriors?

The chain hangs down from the end of the gutter, or from a hole further in.
Wind *can* blow water off, but not easily.  Did I mention that chains can't
clog with leaves?  The only tricky bit is that the chain has to have a
reasonably strong mount, since water can freeze on the chain.

How do you mount stronly enough to hold up ice?  Or are you expected to
go hammer the ice off after a storm so you don't get buildup?

Well, you'd need to use wooden gutters for strength.  Doesn't need to be super
strong, since the ice builds up evenly and forms a column.

That sounds like a lovely icicle!  We were thinking of PVC gutters, and attach
the chain not to the gutter but to the roof.

One of our neighbors has chains dangling from their gutters.  When I first
saw it I couldn't figure out what they were for but it slowly dawned on me.
I don't know how well they work since I can't see the house during a rain,
however, they have been up for several years.  I see no reason for a strong
gutter.  The chain can be supported by a separate mechanism. 

I don't like the gutter on our house.  We live in the woods, for all practical
purposes, and the only way I can keep the downspouts from clogging up is
to clean off the roof and clean out the gutters *every day*!  Especially 
this time of year.  IMHO the gutters on most houses are simply a pain for
homeowner and server no other useful function.

I did see on interesting gutter design at a builders show.  It was a standard
gutter with a sort of cap over it.  The end of the cap extended just beyond
the lip of the gutter and then, with a ~.375 radius the end rolled back into
the gutter.  The idea was that the water would follow the radius around and
then fall into the gutter while any large debris would not be able to follow
the radius and fall to the ground.  Clever.  I don't know how well it worked
and at $6 per running foot, I was not about to find out.

My Dad did Norsk-style gutters on his old house.  These were a V cross
section, made with 6"x.5" plank.  At the ends were chains.  Uncloggable!

Were these painted?  It seems to me that these would have to be made
of some sort of naturally rot resistant wood, not painted, or pine with
some sort of preservative.

On the house we are building, I plan to have no gutters.  The eves are 3'
deep and there will be a bed of small stones on the ground where the rain
drips from the roofs edge.  There will also be a generous grade away from
the house.  We'll see.  Gutters can always be added.

Treated wood, yah.

With open ends, in case I didn't make that clear.

We have 1 feet overhangs and small gravel, which works, except for the area
where all the water pours down onto the front steps, in which area we would
like to install a chain to direct it downwards to the gravel.  You have to
clean the gravel occasionally, things start growing in it.

Re appliances, there is a wet spot under our 'new' chest freezer, which Jim
thought at first was due to poor air circulation, so he set the freezer up
on PVC-piping feet (about 3" sections).  Now he thinks it is due to humidity
condensing in the insulation and then dripping out, and is considering making
a hole in the bottom of the freezer to let it drip out directly instead of
rusting out the metal.  I see why new freezers use foam.  We looked at a few
freezers and refrigerators at Big George's.  The fridges are nearly half
freezer.  I wonder what the average American is now eating.  The refrigerator
section seems to be mainly for eggs, cheese, and bottles.  We have our
refrigerator nearly full of vegetables and a few leftovers, and cannot find
a use for the door shelves (narrow ones) so have been jamming bags of eggplant
into them.  The 18 little indentations for eggs are totally worthless - can
anyone suggest what to do with them?  The newer fridges have removable egg
containers than you can get rid of and use the space for other things, and
the bigger ones have adjustable shelves.  Danby makes a not-so-big one with
adjustable shelves that costs about $35/year to run.  Where is Danby?

If you have humidity condensing in the insulation, there must be air
circulation.  Stem the air circulation and you should be able to reduce
the dripping.  We got the refrigerator with a large freezer because my
wife likes to precook meals and freeze them.  We also buy bulk frozen
vegetables that take up a lot of room.  We made about three gallons of
tomato soup last night and will freeze what we didn't eat last night.
There is a guy in Michigan who makes and sells high efficiency freezers,
and perhaps refrigerators.  He advertises in the back pages of Home Power.

Our low efficiency freezer cost under $3/month to run, I don't think it is
efficient to make a new one to replace it.  The humidity is high in the cellar
because it is cooler than outside by around 20 degrees.  I don't know how it
is getting into the insulation, must have rusted through somewhere.
Some day we may get the perfect freezer but too busy at the moment.

The humidity is probably lower, because of condensation on the walls at
times, but the relative humidity would be higher.

Whatever our little barometer measured, it was around 95 down there, and only
85 upstairs.
Could it just be condensing on the bottom of the case and dripping down?

Barometer? That measures atmospheric pressue, and there would be no
observable change between up and down stairs unless you hve a *very*
sensitive barometer.

Rane, don't quibble.  Often barometers are packaged with humidistats, or
whatever you call the things.  I'm sure that's what Sindi meant.

Jim says hygrometer.  Today my apartment reads 60% humidity, dry day.
We can check the cellar hygrometer to compare.  Rane enjoys quibbling,
don't spoil his fun.  I have noticed a 4 degree temperature difference
between up and downstairs (not cellar) now that we are insulated.  It
lets us choose the most comfortable temperature to work in, up or down.
A humidistat is used with a humidifier and makes it run when it is too dry,
a dehumidistat with a dehumidifier.  What is a string psychrometer?

The freezer in my 'new' fridge is already covered with a lot of ice, after
only a couple of weeks of freezing hot items in it and storing lots of
vegetables in the refrigerator section.  Turning the temperature up works
to defrost it without making the refrigerator too warm.  The last fridge was
self defrosting when the tray under the freezer was left off, and since the
floor is not level under it, I would just put a pan on the top shelf for it
to drip into.  

Hygrometers (humidity measuring devices) measure primarily relative
humidity with a little change in the measurement caused by temperature.
They do not measure humidity. 

keesan slipped in. You calls it quibbling, I call it precision. One better
go for the latter if one is designing something. 

I will, however, stop beating around the bush. "Humidity" is the amount
of water in the air, expressed as pounds of water per pound of *dry*
air (the trandition is to call it "bone dry air" (?)). Relative humidity is
the ratio of the partial pressure of water vapor in the air to the vapor
pressure of water at that temperature. Chemical engineers do this stuff
professionally (and our sophmores go crazy with the calculations infolved.

A *swing* psychrometer consists of two thermometers in a bracket at the
end of a rod/cord/string, which can be swung rapidly around. One of the
thermometers is dry while the other has a wet wick over the bulb, and
measures what is called the wet-bulb temperature. The other measures the
dry-bulb temperature. From these two measurements it is possible to calculate
both the humidity and the realtive humidity. Many have a chart on the
bracket, or even a cylindrical slide-rule-like calculator, for entering
the two temperatures and reading the relative humidity. I have one of these
here right now - a plastic swing psychrometer made by Taylor. I just
"swung" it, and found d.b = 71 F, w.b. = 64 F...set the 'slide-rule' and,
ah-hah!, the r.h. is 64%. 

Oddly enough, that agrees with my hygrometer measurement.

Jim asks whether swinging it affects the mercury level.

No, because these thermometers use alcohol (hah hah). It would not affect
either as neither is significantly compressible, and certainly not at
the forces involved. Medical thermometers have a constriction at which
the mercury column *breaks* when you t ake the thermometer out. This
leaves the column above the break in place, so you can read it, until
you shake it down and rejoin the break.

How do refrigerator thermostats work?  JIm was going to fix one of ours by
looking at the other one (with the bad relay) but has misplaced it, so it will
be a while.  Have they changed in the past fifty years?  I read that the
self-defrosting refrigerators run on timers rather than temperature sensors,
is that right?  (See, I found a way to get back on topic).

They would use both, a thermostat to control temp, a timer to regulate normal
vs. defrost modes.

The usual fridge thermostat involves a switch that is cycled by a remote
sensor bulb, coupled by fluid inside a tube.  As the fluid expands with warmth
(bulk of the expansion happening in the bulb at the end), it pushes the switch
which then turns on the motor.

Do any of the older ones use bimetallic devices instead of fluid?  I have seen
these in central heating thermostats.

Most refrigeration equipment uses the fluidic temperature sensors.

Today we delivered a very heavy semi-antique washing machine to a woman in
Ypsi, free from a neighbor of ours who paid Jim to remove it from her
basement.  The woman was getting rid of a large freezer, two inches shorter
than Jim, so he measured it and the Dodge Colt and it just fit in, wiht the
door removed and placed sideways over the body (held from slipping sideways
by the pistons that held up the hatch).  People were shouting comments at us
as we returned.  Question:  how long should we leave it outside to be sure
there are no more cockroaches in it?  (We saw a few emerge as we loaded it).
The maximum size appliance that fits into the car is the same maximum that
wil fit through the cellar hatch, 26 inches.  Jim says never own anything with
a minimum dimension of more than this.
        The sixties washer seemed heavier than the front loaders which are
built with a block of concrete to stabilize them, and was heavier than the
large upright freezer.  Built to last, thick porcelain.

  I would leave it outside until the first frost. You will probably kill all
of the roaches from the cold, but since they are hardy little buggers, they
just might survive the cold. I would also use a good pesticide sprayed
liberally throughout the unit. You might even want to partially disassemble
the unit so you can get rid of the main nest. Look for it around the motor
housing and in the motor and compressor itself. 
  Once you get roaches, it's damn hard to get rid of them.

Thanks, I will tell Jim not to bring it in the house, hope it is not too late.
The first frost should be soon and we can manage without the freezer for a
week or two.  Does anyone know if there is supposed to be a plug in the hold
in the bottom of the cabinet.  Jim wonders if it is supposed to let air out
when you close the door, or is some sort of drain.  Not selfdefrosting.

  It's probably a drain.

  If it were MY freezer, I would just pitch it. You can never be sure that
you get every bug, and with roaches, you have to get every one of them,
because 2 can turn into 10,000 in a very short time.

Jim says he cleaned it out thoroughly, even vacuumed it (I hope he left the
vacuum cleaner outside) and did not see any bugs.  What would a nest look
like?  He cleaned under it and all around the motor.

  I have never seen a roach nest before, but I do know thier habits. Once upon
a time we had the little critters in our house, because the apartment house
next to us was Roach Central for the entire city of Detroit. We finally got
rid of them, but it took years and a good chunk of my dad's money. We found
that they tend to hide in dark warm spaces.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss