I'd like to propose that we open up the staff conferences to the general
public.  Sensitive matters could, if need be, be discussed via email (with
a record kept on the Google Group's archive).

49 responses total.

  
ummmmmmmm, no.
  

Why not?

Is it proposed that this be done with a staff conference restart,
so that new material is public?
Or is it proposed to open up the archives to the public?

I think we should open up the archives.

I think there are reasons to keep aspects of a staff conference private,
particularly if they contain information related to specific steps on
how things are done on the system.  I like the way m-net has set this up
for that reason.  stuff in sysop is public, stuff in staff is private.

Kinda like Grex's garage cf?

I agree that there may be some aspects/stuff that should be kept 
confidential.

resp:6: I'm a member of garage, but have never really participated, so
quite possibly garage is equivalent to sysop.  If that's the case, then
I don't think any changes are necessary.  I would also say I wouldn't be
surprised if there were many things in staff that would have been more
appropriate for the open garage.cf.

I think Grex needs more transparency.

yup! More than anything else!

I think Grex needs to stick to its contracts:  things written by 
staff with the presumption that they would remain private should
remain private.  There's a good chance that some of the stuff in 
there could be legally actionable if published -- speculation 
about system vandals, for a big one.   (Note that I do not have
access to the staff conference.)

It is stated publicly on Grex that NOTHING should have the expectation
of privacy here.

You are right.  You don't have access to the staff conference.  You
don't know what's in there.  But why shouldn't people?

Re #11: how's that? the reason it's so difficult to prosecute someone is
because of the anonymity, but that works both ways. Also, Grex wouldn't be
liable, just the person being impolite. In any case, we could start from
scratch and henceforth.. make staff world readable??

I'm down with that.

This response has been erased.

Veek, "I'm down with that" means "I agree."

ah! cool :)

In one of my responses in the staff conference, I mentioned a couple of
things Chad could do to get past the script I wrote to prevent his
attacks on Grex, and why it wouldn't be practical to prevent those,
or asking for suggestions in one case.  Another response includes
Chad's phone number (not posted by me).  Are these things we really want
to make public?

we could start afresh - it steps around this issue while giving us what we
need. I see nothing wrong with making his number public (though it's rude i
guess.. and possibly a bit unfair) perhaps it could be purged? anyway, best
to step around such sticky issues. 

No one seems to object to a new, refreshed staff conference being made
public.. so lets go with that?

I say we restart and make public.

I'm fine with public going forward; if everyone writing in staff 
conf knows that it is public, then they will find other venues for 
information which should be held more in confidence.

And thus will the new staff cf become dead with nobody posting to it?

not really.. why assume such things anyway. lets try it and see how it works
out! if it sucks then there's nothing stopping us from rolling back. we
SHOULD try out more stuff without having to constantly worry about failures!!

what's one more dead cf? :)

yeah, though in this case, one could insist that 'staff' use the 
facility provided to the best of the their ability. it's not entirely 
an unreasonable request.

I guess my question is...what is the purpose of the staff cf?

1. to list activities done. accountability Sir! Board posts a task-
list. End of the year, ppl can decide which staffer was most effective!

2. better co-ordination! no more spooked did this or munged that. each 
staffer has a task list - public can decide (somewhat) who is 
interfering where. people know who is working on what and what changes 
are being done. website updates can be correlated to actual updates on 
the web-site. people can check access times on the file system (for non 
root activities and check against sudo logs)

3. no more, remmers never replied to mail! if something is posted in 
staff, said staffers MUST read the conf! It's the official method of 
communication so we all know who the shady scumbag is :p
--
seriously *scowl* this is all very obvious *rolls his eyes*

So, it would be like the garage cf?

  
coop is oepn to all. this is where evnryone can comment, including board/staff
  
some thoghts/comments .. even in 'your' life (whomever 'you' might be) ... are
reserved, not-for-pulbic-consumption.
  
thus, staff.cf .. as is.
  

resp 28: *sigh* not really. This is staff-staff stuff that we get to
read. It saves time in the sense that.. staffer X makes one post to
notify staffer Y about something he's working on BUT the general public
is in on it. Under the current system, X would have to specifically
replicate his posts on coop/garage. 

If everyone wants to make Garage/Coop the new official channel for
communication between staff members, I'm okay with that. staff.cf I
assume will not be used and can be removed?

why not just link the item and be done with it?  I still think there is
a place for private conversations amongst staff, but I think what needs
to change is the secrecy regarding EVERYTHING that they do.  Everything
that happens on the system does not need to be discussed only in staff,
most stuff should be public.

Resp 31: you can do that via the web-interface? in principle, i'm okay 
with linking so long as it gets done - my thinking is, it won't be done 
because it takes extra effort. to be quite honest.. i don't really care 
if 'staff' is super sekret and yeah it would be nice if staff could 
type root password is 'qweerty' in #staff. sekret staff does have it's 
points. 

my main crib is transparency and work not getting done (mysql, email, 
traceroute/ping, new cool thingies). If the board makes a rule that 
henceforth #staff will remain sekret and only contain info that needs 
to be MOST sekret, and if they can implement that rule correctly, I'm 
okay with that!

Now if there were 20K users *sigh* i'd not be wasting my time with the 
finer points of the law <g> and if someone mentioned "#staff is 
sekret!" I'd probably go: "What!" Unfortunately, because we had to pull 
mail and because i cannot boast about how cool Grex is urmm.. therefore 
I'm trying to umm.. oil the wheels (so to speak) :p 

Which in all honesty, is what I think everyone here is trying to do! If 
we were too busy in #General, would we be even bothering about the 
goings on in #staff and #coop??? Mind you, I don't hold staff entirely 
responsible for the current state of affairs!! As someone pointed out 
elsewhere.. things are happening too slowly on Grex.. umm it's like a 
drip or a leak somewhere and you're hunting around with a torch.. I'm 
eliminating sources of problems.. and a sekret staff looks to be one 
source.

Right now, if I say: "I want xyz. I'm willing to do." And the idea is 
somewhat doable - based on data gathered from #coop #staff AND THEN it 
doesn't get done.. it's so much easier to form an opinion without 
having to factor in a mysterious '#staff' and it's goings on.. So 
really, the trigger here is the slow, non-existent pace of works.
-------
once things like mail/mysql/quick access/traceroute are done, AND then 
if we still have few users (fewer than SDF).. one can identify where 
the src of the problem is (more advertisement, lousy convo on the BBS, 
more games) You could even ask for feedback and get some kind of a 
sensible reply.. right now, most ppl will just mutter "no mail" or some 
such vague thing.

  
staff.cf ramining private eliminstes 'chaff' populaitng an otherwise
serious discussion.  drift  -intentially impellemmnted by some few - is gone.
  
staff.cf stays restricted.
  
chaff populates other .cfs .. as all of you knowe ...
  

i didn't say that the general public could post to staff; just that 
they have read access to it.

  
that would onmly be    bait    for the chaffers.
  

resp:33 That's NOT your decision to make.  You don't get to unilaterally
say, "staff.cf stays restricted."  You get to have an opinion like everyone
else.

Let's be honest: staff has been a social club prior to.  Show me a single
example of this "chaffing" you are referring to in, e.g., garage and I'll give
your opinion its due merit.  But the discussons in staff are hardly serious,
if they happen at all.  If anything, opening it up would provide more folks
the opportunity to see waht's going on and provide helpful suggestions, since
almost no one posts to staff.

  
uhhh, i thoght i ws makieng an opinon statement ... easy there pard.
  
i know you know decisionas are a grop effort (panics exdcepted). 
  
as for garage, not in tehre much ... however coop and agora are reasonble
chaff exhimbts in certan, not all, items. 
  
of course if yo eally wanna see chaff ... try teh b0x across the street.
  

it came off to me as a final decision you'd made as well.  it didn't
sound like an opinion.

  
well, it was a final decision that -i- made for -me-, certainly not for hte
system.

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