Ever consider how you became a smart shopper, an intelligent consumer?
You didn't learn how over night.  The kind and type of shopping and
other consuming experiences you had growing up have an impact on your
abilities and opinions about consuming today.  If you had it to do over,
what consumption mistakes that you made growing up would you avoid?  How
would you help the kids of today become better consumers?  Is it necessary
to make some consumption mistakes to reinforce the learning?
  

42 responses total.

Why no responses for such a good item?

Possibly because it is in a cf that very few read. This is getting
to be a problem, on Grex: users do not seem to be "going to the
conferences", but hang out in agora (and even link interesting items
from other cfs to agora, where it is more convenient (?).

agora is too big for me to sift through so I go to the conferances that
interest me.  Perhaps there shoud be a menu from which one can select
a new conferance once logged in and after reading, fixing or forgetting
all the items in a current conferance.  Perhaps something like that would
get more activity out here?

It's true, I keep forgetting about this cf and I like to read it when I do
remember.

I made very few consumption mistakes while growing up, because I
didn't have any money.  I did buy a few used books that I regretted
later; this taught me that "all that glitters is not gold" (if I
didn't already know).
As for the next generation, it's too complicated to go into in
the little time I have for Grexing ...  but in general, I'm usually
just trying to get him to *think* about purchases beforehand.

I just discovered this conference and think there are some
qood questions in this item!!

Hmm, growing up I didn't have much money to buy stuff, then later
on, got into credit/financial trouble, probably because
I didn't know much about financial planning, budgetting,
etc.  So in retrospect, I wish I had better learnings from my family...

I have come to realize that being a nonconsumer, which takes much less money,
is just as much fun as being a consumer.  There is not limit to the amount
of fun you can have.  So how do I be a non-consumer?  I don't think I would
have become one voluntarily.  It's something that I happened into out of
necessity and then developed the skills that I continue to expand on. 
Bartering (for food, I help plant and dig potatoes), voluntary simplicity (a
simpler cheaper way to do the same thing, such as bike instead of drive, or
wear used clothing).  I stopped using a power lower, went to a quiet mower,
then planted a garden (and then stopped weeding the garden, that makes my life
a lot simpler, the neighbors can't figure out what is intentional).  I do my
repairs, and try not to own things I can't repair.  I educate myself on how
to maintain my bicycles and to scavenge parts of abandoned ones.  Scavenging.
Trading with friends, who give me things they don't need.  All these things
require little or no money, and I don't have to pay for amusement because I
am too busy enjoying being a nonconsumer.  (And it keeps the taxes down.)

Sounds like you are still consuming, just not store-bought things :)  
Consumption does not necessarily mean extreme materialism and
wastefulness, in other words.  Anyway, have fun conserving while you
consume!

I don't consider that we are part of a consumer society.  We don't drive the
economy by reusing things that would have gone to the dump.  Or maybe we are
driving it backwards by fixing them and giving thm away for reuse.

An interesting aspect of the hyper-consumer late 50's and early 60's was that
while some people made a spectacle of themselves by buying a new car every
year, it also meant that there were a lot of used cars available for those
who couldn't afford new.  This carried over a lot of the durable goods
economy.

In TUrkey it seems that nothing is thrown away.  The cars there looked like
they had been made in the 40s, with improvised repair parst, and the harbor
was full of sailing ships converted to diesel.  It is very different from our
affluent society.  The hotel I stayed in sometimes had hot water, if the
owner's young son was able to find a store selling LP gas that morning.  Most
of what is thrown out here would be valued highly there.  Will be here too,
some day soon.  In Yugoslavia new clothes were worn to go out, and you changed
to old ones when you came back in.  The biggest deal was to have a new looking
coat to cover what was under it.  Nobody would have dreamed of wearing torn
or patched clothing in public, it would be assumed to be out of necessity.

So, do you have electricity at your house?  Generate it yourself? If
so, congratulations, sell some back to the power company.  And those
light bulbs...made them yourself?  Been to a doctor recently?  Or a
dentist?  Your kids have all their vaccinations?  Purchased a book?
   I assume also that you use well water from a well you dug yourself
(wouldn't want to consume any well-digger services) but even so you'd be
consuming a natural resource (and of course you use a bucket on a rope
and bucket--where'd you get them?--to pull your water out of the well).
You have a septic tank that you installed and clean out yourself, or
maybe you don't have indoor plumbing (that you installed yourself).
Use soap?  Made it yourself, of course, but from what?  Animal fat and
lye?  Where'd you get the ingredients?  The recipe?
   You, of course, grow and raise all the food that you and your family
need during the year, based of course on seeds that you collect yourself
(wouldn't want to buy any hybrids, of course) and you run a breeding
program for whatever animals you need.  You grown your own cotton or
flax and weave your own clothe and sew your own clothing (but not with
a sewing maching...but then, where'd you get the needle?).  Since you
let your weeds grow, of course you aren't responsible for the removal
of noxious weeds from other people's property caused by the propagation
of your weeds (and remember even if you feel this isn't necessary, if it
is to society in general, you've still caused consumption of a resource).
   And you don't use the city streets to get to your place of employment
(oops, you don't have one, since you are spending a lot of your time
not consuming).  And you constructed your own bicycle from steel
you smelted yourself in facilities you built yourself from materials
you...what...found laying around, mined yourself?  How about your garbage?
Do you burn it (oops, air pollution)?  Or do you set a good proportion
of it out by the curb to be taken to a landfill?  Yes, you recycle, but
ALL of it?  The point is, even though you conserve and feel justifiably
proud of your "non-consumer" status, you are consuming, even consuming
"used" goods--they're just one step removed from new, and there are costs
to disposal at the end of their life.  Speaking of life, when you die,
will you still consume nothing?  Probably not, at least in the short term
(even if you don't go with a casket, etc., even the funeral pyre than
turns your body to ashes is consuming a resource).  There ain't no such
thing as a free lunch, in other words.
  Just be aware, that we *all* are consumers whether we realize or not
or wish to take responsibility for our consumption.  We almost always
ignore the amount of effort and material that we consume just living.
However, there's nothing wrong with minimizing your consumption, and I
applaud your efforts to do so.  (I'm taking a very broad view here, and
on purpose--there is no such animal as a non-consumer; please excuse
the sarcasm but you're consuming).

Actually, the answer to many of your questions is yes.
A friend of ours is generating electricity by wind and solar, and plans to
sell us some via the grid when that becomes possible.
We are building a house with enough insulation that most of the heat wil comme
from the glassed-in porch.
We do not buy light bulbs.  We find them in thrown-out refrigerators.  If you
use the type of lamp with a reflector, 40-watt bulbs work fine.  I found
several of these lamps by the curb in need of repair.
I don't normally purchase books but use the library, saves paper.
I have made soap from to-be-discarded fat froma butcher, but I bought lye.
I save seeds and trade them with other growers, and we try to grow most of
our food, or help friends grow it for us.
We don't use animals for anything that I can think of.
I don't sew clothing, there is already so much thrown out at the curb that
I can fix (with needles that I did not make, of course).
I work at home, via computer (bought in 1985, upgraded a bit).
My bike was put together out of parts from discarded bikes, but a new seat,
after I tried biking on a long trip on the old one.
We take in a lot more trash than the little bit of cellophane and plastic that
we put out (mostly from stuff we could not fix that we took in).
My body is being donated to science, minus usable organs.
We minimize heat consumption by dressing very warmly, any foods we buy tend
to come in 50-pound recyclable bags.
Perfection is of course unattainable, as you noted.
Food wastes are composted, paper recycled or written on the back of first.
My memory is not perfect, did I miss much?  This is getting interesting!

I'm not sure what the difference between buying electricity from a friend,
transported over the power grid, is in terms of being a consumer than buying
electricity from Detroit Edison is.  Either way, you are consuming electricity
being bought from somewhere, and using the power grid paid for by the electric
companies.

Even stuff gotten for free still strikes me as consuming.  Maybe very cheap
consuming, but consuming things none the less.

But we are trying to avoid increasing the amount of nonrenewable resources
being consumed.  We consume things that were on their way to the dump, or that
are renewable, such as solar power (of course the silicon solar sells are
manufactured, but silicon is pretty common stuff, and in theory it should be
possible to set up a plant to make them using solar energy).  The problem with
getting electricity from the friend is that they would probably pay him only
about 2 cents/kWh, and charge us close to 10.  Most of hte electricity from
Detroit Edison is not solar, but we are contributing $7/month to get 42
cents/month or so worth of power from their new collectors west of town (at
about 4 cents/kWh).  The problem with generating your own in the city is that
there is shade, and you need battery storage, the expensive part.  Better for
what is produced to be sent to where it is being used.
(Got a telegram, by for now.)

FWIW, manfacturing silicon often involves some rather nasty solvents.

Is that from the manufacture of Silicon? Or from the manufacture of 
chips from silicon, which requires photoresist, etc?

        While there is some pollution or undesirable material in the making
of P.V. panels, the production of power from then on is both clean and free.
I currently produce some of the power i use at home (consuming the sun) and
will eventually make all i use. It doesn't sound like they claim to be
campletely nonconsumers but are largly reconsumers. Every little bit helps.

Patrick, can you tell us more about what equipment is used to produce
solar power, and how many square feet of sunny area you estimated would be
needed to supply a certain amount of power in a Michigan December?

It should in theory be possible to recycle the nasty solvents, which would
also reduce the environmental impact of making the solvents.  Some day the
earth will have to be treated as a closed system, except for the input
of solar energy (which is good for at least a few more of our lifetimes).
You can't just keep using up things like water, air and soil.

Forgot to mention that we intercepted 1500 concrete blocks on their way to
the dump (most from the old county building - the workers there helped us to
load them up, and from a school being knocked down, where we pulled them out
of the rubble and nearly got stopped,b ut I had to point out that since we
were already loaded up and had not hurt ourselves, we were far more likely
to be injured by returning the blocks, which was their worry).  We also got
our rebar from a downtown construction site, where it had been left outside
the fence for a few weeks because it had gotten twisted (we got permission)
- we carried it home one Sunday morning on two bikes, and untwisted it.  And
we have fished out at least a ton of used lumber (had to pull the nails) and
drywall (we needed small pieces) and copper pipe.  This is far more than I
can contribute to the dump in my lifetime, which would have been balanced
anyway by what we get at the curb and put back into use.

I don't consider services to be something consumed, in the sense of used up.
Anyway, our dentists are definitely renewable resources, with 3 kids.
Proper diet and exercise are ways to avoid needing a doctor.

Those won't *avoid* needing a doctor. They'll reduce the frequency and 
severity of the consequences, though.

        I'll check with a manufacurer as to hazardous materials. Michigan
winters are low power pruducers for solar. You need a large battery to carry
you through extended cloudy days. I will probably add a small wind charger
to supplement rather than the hydrocarbon fueled generators most people use.

That's quite a lot of interesting information and experiences, keesan.
Perhaps you'd want to start a new consumer cf. item for the discussion
of *reducing one's consumption*?  Bear in mind that most of us don't have
a lot of time to scrounge for free stuff, but I'm sure there are some
other ways to conserve that would be worth the time...

The problem with solar in Michigan is the cloudy winters.  Most of my electric
consumption is in the winter.  In the summer I don't need lighting, the days
are longer, and I don't need heating, and I don't bake much because I only
bake in cold weather.  My summer electric bills are about $7/month, plus the
solar contributions of $7/month.  I figure for this amount it is not worth
investing in panels and batteries which would probably require more energy
to build (batteries wear out over time) than they would save by use.


re #20.  The only times in the past twenty years I have seen a doctor, I would
have been better off not wasting the money - a ripped tendon (the doctor
refused to answer my questions and just told me to go spend $2000 on physical
therapy, I consulted a friend who teaches therapeutic massage instead;  a
poison-ivy type allergy that the resident decided was due to black walnuts
- it was actually gingko, I looked it up;  actually, I benefited from calling
a doctor friend about fleabites and beestings, but would have survived).  You
can avoid circulatory problems, respiratory problems, and the like by eating
properly and biking for transportation, not smoking or drinking, etc.

We are enjoing the scavenger lifestyle, and realize that not everyone can be
a scavenger, but think that products should not be replaced so often when they
could be repaired, or built to last in the first place.

Hi Kentn, would you mind starting the item?
What is the definition of 'consuming' that you would like to use?

        Sindi, with a large enough battery all you have to do is monitor it
and it's not uncommon to get 20 years out of batteries you get used.

You are only supposed to run them down half way, and Chris says his have
gotten down 80% in December.  Should he be recharging from the grid, or not
using solar in the winter?  What battery size would you suggest for a
low-usage dwelling?  (Or what number of batteries).  And what would the cost
of hte used batteries be, per year?

        He needs to do an equalizing charge periodically. That essentialy boils
the electrolyte, giving a full and equal charge. The battery size is dependent
on your usage and average extended cloudy periods. I think Mi. average is 3-5
days in winter. If you average daily use is 1k, you need a system that can
supply 1k/day for 5 days without draining your bank more than 50% plus allow
for use during the recharging period.With Mi. only averaging 2 1/2 sun hours
per day in winter, it is a state to consider use of wind power as a
supplement.

Do you mean 1Kw usage per day?  Or that your average draw is 1kilowatt?
What do you estimate it would cost, with used batteries, to build a system
to supply 2 kilowatt hours/day average in December here, that would last 20
years?   I have started a new item on energy, let's continue the discussion
there.

Figuring energy requirements is pretty easy.  First you have to figure
out how much you need or consume.  If you have a power meter that measures
how much you consume off the grid, it's pretty easy.  You can also figure
it out by looking at you power bills.  

If you want to go a it from a blank sheet, make a list of the power consuming
devices that you want to run, their wattage and for how many hours you want
to run them / they run per day.  (Get out that stopwatch and be prepared
to spend a day with you fridge ;-)  Multiply watts and hours to get watthours.
Add it all together for daily consumption.
 
Since most appliances run on 115 vac and batteries produce DC, you will need
an inverter to convert the DC to AC.  Since most inverters these days are
1;0c80% efficient or better, multiply the watthours of the stuff using 115
vac by .8/1 or 1.25.
 
To figure out how big a battery (bank) you need, divide watthours by your
battery (bank) voltage.  This will result in AmpHours of battery capacity
needed.  If you want to be able to weather several cloudy days, multiply
amphours of battery capacity by the number of days you want to weather.
The resulting figure is the minimum battery capacity you will be needing
for your life style.
 
Now you need to figure out how much solar cells you need to recharge those
batteries.  Since we don't get much sun here in MI, you may want to have
enough capacity to charge your battery bank all the way in one day.  i.e.
enough power in one day to carry you through ~3 cloudy days.  Also, since
the days are shorter and and sun angle low in the winter, you will need
significantly more cells in the winter than in the summer.  Solar cell
data sheets and solar flux data from the National Weather Service will help
you in determining how much solar cell you will need.
 
Now get a copy of Home Power and start calling around for prices on solar
cells and batteries.  After you have retrieved you lower jaw from Paris,
consider reducing your "needs" ;-)

        Klaus, it'sa great explanation except you need double the final figure
to allow for 50% depth of discharge. And anyone looking for remewable
components. send me mail and i'll give you some Mi. sources.
        If you have an interest in these things, there is a gathering in
Lansing in April (19th i think). There will be info and demos. No sales
allowed there but get a business card. 
        The Great Lakes Renewable Energy Assoc. arranged for the installation
of U.S.Solars new solar shingle on the Urban Options building where the show
is and it will be the ribbon cutting. This is the first installation in the
state other than experimental. We also will have GMs EV-1 Impact electric car
and a home converted S-10 pick up.

Patrick, please post a reminder and maybe several of us can go together.
I still don't think it is worth going solar for 60 kilowatt hours/month, bu
will attempt to figure out what I need and you can price it out roughly.
Or tell us what your system produces and what it cost.

        My system is still a puppy. I've got 100 watts on the roof at a cost
of about $350.00. Batteries-4 6 volt exides hooked up 12 volt for about 480
amp hours. I got a top dollar meter/controller ($350.00) becouse it will
handle anything I'm likely to add in the forseeable future. My inverter is
a Trace 2012 (2000 watt/12 volt)that I got used (1/2 price) for $550.00. Minor
comprnents, wiring, angle iron for mounts, etc. about $250.00. Total=$1500.00.
        I can operate as usual, without any incoming power for 1-1 1/2 days,
miserly for about 3-4 days. In the summer I can live off the system except
for my q
q

        Sorry, got interrupted. I can live off the system during the summer
except for my 12 volt fridge. In the winter it's iffy how long I can go. I'm
looking for property to move my mobile home onto, once I do that I'll start
adding panels until I have about 2000 watts. Sometime during that period I
will add an 800-1000 watt wind generator. Maybe another $5000.00 and I'll be
set for life. Almost forgot about $1500-2000 for batteries. The system will
take 10-12 years to pay for itself at todays rates but I'm not looking for
payback, I want the independence.

How many watts would you need for average usage of 2 kilowatt hours/day?
I figure my total electric usage is under $100/year, with fridge.  At the end
of 30 years, assuming your system were large enough for my usage, I would then
be even, if all components were still functioning.  What is the chance of
that?  (And that assumes no power needed from the grid during cloudy spells).
I doubt whether low-usage systems are economically advisable yet, since many
of the expensive components are the same price no matter what usage is.
BUt we are set up to convert when technology improves or mass production makes
the prices more reasonable.  In the meantime, reducing usage.
        These systems certainly make sense where you are not already on the
grid, but I seriously wonder how much energy has to be put into manufacturing
$3000 of equipment, and if it is not more energy than will be generated.

A kilowatt hour is the amount of power you would use drawing 1000 watts for
an hour.  Accoringly, two kilowatt hours per day would be:
        
        2000 watt hours
        ----------= 83.33 watts
        24 hours

Since that 83.33 watts is the average utilization, and electrical usage isn't
usually constant, your peak utilization is likely to be a lot higher.  You
need to have the capacity, either through good storage batteries or just lots
of capacity, to be able to handle your peak utilization.

For anyone really interested in this stuff, I suggest getting hold of
Home Power magazine.  They also have a web site and offer (for $29) a
CD ROM with *all* of their previous articles on it.  If you want to see
equipment in action, visit the Lansing fair or the Midwest Renewable
Energy Fair in Amherts WI.  I have only been to the WI fair and I can say
that many of the big players in this industry are represented there.
I hope to make it to the Lansing fair this year.  Let us know the exact
date when you find it, Patric.

        The date is 4/19, a saturday. Urban Options is on Grove St. directly
behind the police station on M.A.C. Ave. about a block off Grand River.
        Steve you can't figure it al 24 hours because your sun hours are where
your power comes in. Mi. winter,w/about 2 1/2 sun hrs=
        2000/2.5=800 watts
        meaning you would need about 8-10 panels at about $3000.00-4000.00.
also, to a point, your better value is to have more batteries, counting on
having enough sunny days to get by with a few less panels. Few R.E.ers don't
have some back up power source, usually infernal combustion. My choice is wind
with the drawback of moving parts to be maintained, usually waaay above the
ground. Thank god tilt downs are becoming popular.
        Anyone wanting to go on the 19th can get more details by calling 
        1 888 999 MICH I think 10-5 m-f.

If anyone is planning to go from here by car, could we go together?  It is
still a bit early in the season for bike camping.

It sounds like $500 for a panel for 100 watts.
Jim asks if there are 12V DC microwave ovens?  We know about refrigerators.
What is the efficiency of an inverter?  A computer runs on DC if you bypass
the AC-DC converter.  Could you simply not bother with an inverter and save
the materials and money there?  A TV uses 60-cycle but is available in DC with
a converter.  Is there anything that you really need AC for?  Battery clocks
now.  Most AC operated equipment has a converter built in.  Ac is a good way
to transport electricity.  A friend said DC light switches wear out faster
at higher current.
        With our electric consumption at $7/month and Detroit Edison chargin
us for $6/month worth of power whether or not we use it, there is no point
going to solar power backed by Detroit Edison, at least not financial.
Might be worth it for heating water if you don't care what temperature it is
stored at (anything over 100 up to 160).  But why go through electric instead
of direct water heating?  (Or can't you get the water as hot that way?).
        Jim thinks fluorescent lights work better on AC, the compacts might
work as well on DC?  Correct?

        Current average price per watt new is about $6.00 although you can
uften find used or discounted panels in the $3.50-4.00 range.
        D.C. switches tend to arc more in use than A.C. so the life is shorter.
Some A.C. appliances use the frequency as a timer or other control. Even small
microwaves use 750 watts which would require over 60 amps so i doubt they have
them available. A standard incandescent bulb can be used on D.C. but once
again, you have high amperage. I'm not sure about campacts.
        Your domestic hot water can be supplied by solar but in michigan
winters you may not get above 130-140. This is still hotter than you need.
if you want radiant heat you only need about 95-100F. But you need onough
square footage of panels  and enough storage to get through the night.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss