ICAN - Interactive Community Access Network - new kid on the block.

39 responses total.

A new effort to create a county-wide community electronc network has bee
forming for some time. This organization has major connections to powerful
interests in the county and, from all appearances, is interested in
collaboration and cooperation with others with similar goals. I see this as
a major opportunity for Grex and HVCN and all other groups [Arbornet, take
notice!] to find ways to achieve common goals, while retaining individual
identities that make sense.  As events warrant information about this new
group will be posted here for evaluation and discussion. <adbarr loves the
Sun-4>

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I will let all know as soon as I do. Several responses from Grex. Message
acknowledged at Arbornet, no response. 

Grex, Arbornet, HVCN, and ICAN all rubbed up against one another this
afternoon at the HVCN board meeting. This is a start. Next tuesday evening
at the Ann Arbor District Library (main branch on Fifth in Ann Arbor) will
be an opportunity to talk to each other informally. 6:30 p.m. -- 9:00 p.m.
M-Link, HVCN, and other demos. New web-based conferencing system. Even some
food. 

I posted an update on Arbornet about this development, and suggested they look
here for the basic information. This was inevitable, I think. Does anyone
remember janc's vision when WIN was aborning?  It is time to grow.

I was impressed with the history of how ICAN came about, and its direction(s).
However, I'm not certain I qualify as an agent of Arbornet as you described
in #4  ;)

I intend to try and be at the AA Public Library (er...District Library) for
the info night.  This is an interesting developement which, imho, is related
to the essence of "WIN" (still alive in spirit, if not fact).

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Actually, the only person who did not appear was Elvis, but I understand he
tried to get in after we all left. Richard, I think you should become involved
in the ICAN initiative somehow. I also hope Arbornet, as a formal matter, will
decide to join this initiative in the sense of positive participation in the
formative stages. It may take some adjustment in thinking for all concerned.

Well, I'm back to my mode of trying to place a "kick in the a*s" to get
Arbornet moving again in cooperative efforts.  I'll not, however, blow a
gasket over it.  I do not know where Arbornet is headed, but if it doesn't
get on-track with everything else that is happening around this
'cyber-community' it will be lost in the dust.  I do not wish that to happen,
but won't go down with the ship either.

I just hope I don't become too much a pain in the a*s for some people over
there.  I'm trying to push things, but I'm trying NOT to single out any
individuals or groups.  The entire user group over there has to take hold or
nothing will happen  <sigh>.

I agree that no one should harangue Arbornet. The opportunity for mutual
benefit from cooperation is here but there is no point in getting upset if
Arbornet chooses to decline the opportunity. I suggest that the informal way
Grex and HVCN people cooperate and interact is an example of how a good
relationship can evolve. Neither group has given up its identity as far as
I can see, and there has been a real spirit of mutual help.  I hope Grex never
loses its independence and character but I also hope that HVCN will be a
positive factor for Grex. So far, in little ways, that seems to be what has
happened. Certainly Grex has been a positive force for HVCN. What is really
frustrating is that there are many great people at Arbornet that, I believe,
would like to cooperate but they seem to be cut off from doing so.

yes, there are many good people at Arbornet who "seem" to be cut off from
participating, but don't worry, they'll find find their way into this process
on their own...it is un-stoppable.

That is good. They are certainly welcome.

For those interested, there are some indelicate (and some delecate)
discussions (janc, can you fix - or should I do something there - 
the word-wrap on Arbornet?) discussions on Arbornet relative to 
cooperation. Policy and Election have become quite interesting there.
I do not know what is going on in General - last time vicious fish
attacked me there.  

I, too, avoid m-nets general.cf, but have been trying to keep these
discussions alive in policy.cf, win.cf (I think there is an item there), and
as it came up...in the election.cf.  Perhaps I should link the election.cf
item to the win.cf to keep it alive???

There seems to be a tide of change leaning toward greater
cooperation...however, I'm sure that it is any more than supported WIN in the
first place.  there are darn few people involved in the discussions, and most
Arbornet BoD members are either not participating in the dialogue, or posting
rare responses which move away from the topic.

I'll keep trying to spur these discussions...any help from grexers and
hvcners, and all others, is appreciated.

The action, folks, is on Arbornet --course we will all die of a curse, if we
link these discussions! Rub your idols, burn insence, sacrifice your babies!
Throw virgins in the volcanoes (NO!) anyway, you got the idea.

HVCN will be creating a community networking conference on Backtalk. I intend
to add an item discussing the ICAN initiative in that conference. Will it
be ok to cross post those entries here, and vice-versa (assuming dpc will
help) to create the widest possible audience. I don't want to abandon this
issue here but do want to get some content from the ICAN people, and my
assumption is many of them may be more likely to play in the GUI stuff
than come here. <adbarr promises not to call anyone here a Geek, unlike
our other, out of control, director, whose name I will not mention> What
are your wishes? Perhaps rickyb could help also in keeping these two
conferences coordinated? There is going to be lots happening in the next
months that, I think, will be interesting and possibly important to those
here.  For those who might not know: Backtalk is a conferencing system
on HVCN -- http://www.hvcn.org -- go to interactive forums  -- that can
be accessed with Lynx - text mode, or better with Netscape etc. Please
insert ? at end of second sentence above.

Good idea arnold.  someone please give me a little direction in how to keep
the coordination going and i will be glad to do what i can (ICAN?)  ;)

It would be nice to duplicate/share these items and responses in the WIN
conference ar Mnet as well.  Since i am a FW there (only position I hold on
any system at the moment) I may be better positioned to keep that conference
up to speed with both Grex and HVCN.  

we'll show those folks (all folks) how to cooperate in discussion and how
fruitful greater participation can be.!.

Excellent! I knew I could count on you, rickyb. I fully support the idea of
cross posting to m-net WIN conference. This is going to take some time and
will not be coordinated as well as a computer could do, but us humans can
make the judgments that will cause the information to be usefull  As far as
coordination, I will discuss that issue with HVCN's board tommorrow. They
have some good ideas, in most cases.  ;-)  You, dpc, and I should take this
responsibility until such time as our over-worked tech volunteers can 
make this automatic. I think people will be surprised. Oh, and let's not
forget cross-posting in other areas. There are some interesting discussions
being started on HVCN that could bring new insights to conferences here and
on m-net.  I do have a concern that some of the more "acidic" personalities
will pledge themselves to be positive and civil on these cross-posts. We are
looking for constructive information exchanges.  I cringe at some of the
characterizations of other people I read sometimes. It serves no community
purpose. Ideas are despartely requested.  Our attorney is busy and has not
been able to address fully our AUP on conferencing. I'll gently remind him
about this. He does good work so it will be worth the wait.

I have two thought on that line...
1]  _I'll need help_ in learning how to post text created (or captured)
    off-line into items of the WIN.cf at mnet (or into Picospan items, while
    we're at it).
2]  I think it is important that we share posts/re-post all responses in their
    entirety, "acidic personalities" and all.  I agree they could be, and
    likely will be, counter-productive to the concept of shared discourse,
    but imposing our editorial values on the discussion would be even more
    so.  We need to have confidence in the higher intellects who participate
    that they will overlook, and teach by example, thereby adding an element
    to the process which will help our electronic community grow into a more
    'mature' state of developement.

re 2] well put

re 1] I can help. It should be a snap.
The hardest part will be deciding what has been posted on a given system
already.

You guys are right. Let it all hang out. The community does have the ability
to regulate itself. Richard, I think we need to know the details of your
present software/hardware configuration. The Windows clipboard worked well
for me in posting the recent HVCN agenda in the HVCN conference on HVCN 
enough HVCN's for you?). Srw is the expert here. I loaded the agenda file
in a Smartcom editor window, copied it to clipboard, and pasted it into
the conference item in another window. I am sure there are other options. 

HVCN now has an active ICAN item and an item to discuss sharing among
systems (community network information) -- http://www.hvcn.org -- go to
Interactive Forums. I apologize for the formatting problem in the first
item. Srw was pressuring me, Mom!

Arnold...I can get with steve re-my configuration.  I use different computers
depending on where I am when I can steal some time.  For the most part, when
I visit mnet or grex I do *not* use windoze.  On one machine I'm using Telix
(but having lots of trouble getting it to work for grex, except on the 9600bps
only line) and on the other I'm using ComitLite, both for DOS.  Once I get
the feel for Telix, and end my problems with it connecting to grex, I'll
likely go exclusively to it for terminal program except when using my slip
account (where I am in windoze, using Winsock, Netscape, Eudora, etc).

I'm pretty good with DOS, only marginal with windoze.  I've become a windoze
user only through kicking and screaming all the way ;]  But, I've begun to
learn a few windoze tricks and I expect I'll get more comfortable with it as
I do things like this initiative.

Telix, otoh, has the ability to create rather complex scripts from what I
understand.  It may be _possible_(?) to create a "macro" which will capture
text from one conference and post it into another (or macro_s_?).

dpc mailed us and said it was a nightmare to share when he tried it sometime
ago between Grex and m-net. HVCN has a test area for just trying things out.
Perhaps a little area on Grex could be used - to be later scrubbed as a
test run to try cutting and pasting.  The posts would not have to be real.
We might get a feel for the numbering etc. problems. If it still is a
nightmare then we can start looking for other solutions - long run. As you
can see in the 1st item in the HVCN Communitynet conf I ran into a wrap
problem posting an item from my editor. The post was extremely simple
to make using Windows cut and paste but I should have used a test
first. This was in the Vanilla version so I should have remembered it
does not wrap as nice as Pistachio or this text-wrapper here on Grex.

If the conferences to not have 50 new entries each per day (ie - a reasonable
number) I am hopefull it will work with at least reasonable success. I think
we are still waiting for permission, but in the meantime we can try out
some examples?  I understand your feelings about Windows, but there are
somethings it makes possible that are light years ahead of DOS alone. I am
always accessing Grex and m-net through a Windows comm program. Same with
HVCN.  I will try setting up a test item on HVCN and transfer some of 
my own posts - I guess no one would object to _that_!  Would anyone here
object to a TEST item in this conference just to try the concept? I'll remind
people to use the forget command in the zero entry. I don't want to waste
much disk space with this so we will keep it pretty short.

I seem to be forgetting to tie my shoelaces more often these days. Grex too
has a Test area - I assume that would be the mor appropriate place for this
little scheme.  So don't look for it here. Will let you know if and when 
it is available to look at.

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That's what I thought. I told Arnold that it would be appropriate to ask
first. I think the current participants of each conference should approve the
idea, but I have no doubt that they will on Grex and HVCN.

To date I still do not feel I have had any definitive answer from either 
Grex or Arbornet about sharing the information in the ICAN related
conferences with each other and with HVCN. HVCN agrees. All responses from
Grex have been positive, but as individuals, not as Cyberspace Communications,
Inc. Arbornet has had some general discussion about this, but no real
responses saying yes, I approve, or no, I don't approve. I want to limit the
sharing to the ICAN matters because they transcend all three systems, I think.
I will send a message to baff here to the effect that I will assume after
a week that there is no objection. I guess I'll do the same with Arbornet
and see what happens. The ICAN steering committee has directed/requested
a public conference on HVCN about defining / refining the mission and
objectives of the project. That will be started very soon. I would like to
share that conference here on Grex and on Arbornet to dispell rumors and
allay fears that are unfounded by some. I would also like to have the
intellects on Grex and Arbornet contribute to the development of collaborative
efforts here in the county. 

At the Internet Council meeting tonight we heard a stunning presentation about
the Digital Library Project at the UM. This is the future of the web and 
cooperation/collaboration among information systems. I am not sure how,
exactly, but I sense deeply that the concepts discussed during that
presentation will impact greatly on all of us in providing the services we
do or intend to provide. This is another whole series of issues that we should
all be talking about.  To save resources on Grex I am not going to repeat all
this to baff, but will request they read this and respond if they object to
the sharing.

My intention - as a stop-gap - is to recruit a crew of volunteers on each
system (2 on each) to manually cross post the content of the related
conferences/items on each system. Thus Grex would have a "Voices from 
Arbornet" and "Voices from HVCN" item directly related to the Grex
ICAN item here, and so on on each system. This is a pain, and not perfect,
but it does open up some communication.  Remmers has a good idea for the
future -- share a central machine for shared conferences. I don't know if the
US will fund the peacekeeping force, however, to enforce the truce. We shall
see.  Dpc was right when he said that trying to integrate the postings of two
systems by hand was a nightmare, let alone three systems. We just do not have
the time for that. So, until some silicon-based solution is available, we will
have to be content with separate but related threads. I think that will be
useful to all three systems.  Comments? <adbarr could go on, but declares
mercy on his readers>

Based on what some individual board members have said here on Grex, it is
likely that the Grex board will feel that you do not need their approval.

I have heard no objections, really, from anyone for that matter.
How does M-net feel about this sharing?

M-net (Arbornet) is talking. I posted this message there in Policy #712 at
r 53. My assuption about Grex is as you stated above, srw. 

I don't think it's necessary to get anyone's permission on M-Net.
In fact, by the mere fact of *asking* permission, you might be implying
that permission is *needed.*   8-)
        After all, we're talking about publicly available text posted
on open conferencing systems.
        Let's not get constipated.  Keep things free-flowing...

Well, it is a relief to have that remedy. You got it!

There might be a question of copyrights by the author, though.  According to
janc, systems like The River take copying of online postings *very* seriously.
Something like links versus copies?

Thank's for the insight, Scott. Never thought of that little possible trap,
and knowing some of the personalities involved in the systems involved, you
have pointed out a little land mine we don't want to sit upon.  Hmmm. Guess
I will bring this out front, and throw it in the pucnch bowl for all to 
observe. <punch bowl -- a "pucnch bowl" is imaginary>

I expected that this could only work if all of the shared conferences had
disclaimers that they are shared, and that all people by posting are granting
the rights to have their post copied into the shared system. I think that will
cover the legal requirements for the authors. 

Good. Will do that. I hate this legal stuff!

The non-profit reprinting of copyrighted materials is permitted under
the "fair use" exception of copyright law.  I would rather not see
us posting dubious disclaimers.  
        BTW, "fair use" means that you *don't* have to ask permission
of the author.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I think it is reasonable to warn participants that their entries will appear
on multiple systems. I don't think that's a dubious disclaimer.

Warning, yes.  Asking permission, no.

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