This item is spun off from item:classical,45 (classical conference, 
item 45.  Sindi Keesan has been looking for evaluations of LP recordings
of the standard classical repetoire.  In the last few days 
discussion has turned to LP-playing hardware so I thought I'd 
make a linked item...  people who have already read this in 
Classical conference can skip the first 8 responses.

21 responses total.

#185 of 192: by C. Keesan (keesan) on Wed, Jan 30, 2002 (12:07):
 The diamond tip disappeared from my Empire stylus.  We have four Empire
 cartridges so I moved over a stylus from a different number cartridge.  THe
 second tip disappeared. (Jim tells me if I am going to clean the stylus with
 a brush to do it from back to front so it won't knock off the diamond tip).
 There are many different Empire styluses that apparently are each supposed
 to take a different diamond stylus - why?  The more expensive cartridge wants
 one for $50, the others for $25-35.  What happens if I put a cheaper stylus
 in a more expensive cartridge?  (I already did that and it sounded a bit tinny
 but that might be my speakers or the cartridge getting old - I think it
 sounded tinny with the original stylus).
 
 The various styluses are physically interchangeable, at least the Empire 1000
 stylus fit just fine into the Empire 5000 XEI cartridge and the other two look
 the same (1000E and 2000 and 2000E/III).  The 2000E/III is $50, the 2000 $25
 and the 1000E $30 or $35.
 
 We also have a few other turntables with different cartridges that look
 like they would fit this turntable.  Should I pick one that is the same
 weight, or must other things match?  We can adjust the tone arms for different
 weights of cartridge.
 
 I have a 1980 catalog of stereo components that sells separate tone arms as
 well as cartridges and turntables, and implies that it is very important to
 get a precise match, but Jim thinks that is not necessary since I cannot hear
 the differences anyway and don't play things loudly.

#186 of 192: by C. Keesan (keesan) on Wed, Jan 30, 2002 (16:23):
The E stands for elliptical, which is more expensive, so apparently I
accidentally robbed the stylus out of something appropriate (1000E to
5000EXI).
Radio Shack is a bit cheaper on the smaller selection that it carries, but
you have to be persistent.  The friendly guy there said all their Empire styli
were $13.  When I expressed surprise, he noticed that they had six different
Empire styli (2000 and 2000E but not the others).  Plus shipping.

#187 of 192: by C. Keesan (keesan) on Sat, Feb  2, 2002 (16:19):
Another online needle place (needle express) said they had a 2000E stylus for
$50 (advertised online for $30) and an X66 for the 1000E or 5000XEI for $30.
I asked about the 2000 (which I think is not meant to take an elliptical
stylus) and he said to use the X66 (EX66?) and you might need to adjust the
angle at which it hits.  The 2000E stylus should work in the other three but
has a needle guard for the extra $20 (surely this cannot be the only
difference).  Empire cartridges and styluses stopped being made 8 years ago.

THe 1000E stylus is shorter than the 5000EXI.  Jim adjusted the cartridge
somehow so it did not rest on the record (while rebuilding it with a paperclip
because it has always been broken, the single/multiple adjustment never worked
so it is now always single).

According to who you believe, elliptical styluses sound better in new records
but worse in old ones and contact more surface so wear less;  contact less
surface so wear more;  wear out all the frequencies at an even rate, whereas
the conical diamonds contact only the top of the groove and play only the
lower frequencies so wear those out faster;  no difference in wear.  Conical
ones are better at ignoring scratches and more rugged.  Cartridges wear out
and should be changed every two years;  every two needles;  when they sound
bad or tinny;  when they lose one channel.  Diamond styluses should be changed
every 1000 hours or 2 years;  every 200-300 hours;  every 2500 hours;  when
they need it which you determine by taking it to the record store and having
them look under a microscope;  when they sound bad;  when they break or
disappear.  Everyone agrees that diamonds are not forever but wear a lot
longer than sapphire and even more longer than osmium.  I found one site that
still sells diamond needles with 3 sapphire needles as part of the set (which
presumably gives you a few weeks to mail order a replacement while rapidly
wearing out the temporary sapphires) - $3.50-$10 for BSR etc.  They did not
sell Empire, which is too new.  Nobody sells osmium but one record jacket
listed them.  Nobody even mentioned steel needles, or the fact that a record
can still be heard (probably with the quality of a steel needle) after the
diamond tip disappears.

#188 of 192: by C. Keesan (keesan) on Tue, Feb  5, 2002 (10:59):
A former Kiwanis customer brought us her turntable and replacement; stylus
from Radio Shack, which she said would 'not play'. Jim took a look and they
had sold her a stylus with square peg to go into a cartridge with round hole.
Radio Shack told me she could return it despite warranty being up.

#189 of 192: by Ken Josenhans (krj) on Tue, Feb  5, 2002 (15:20):
Jim is correct that you should brush the needle only from back to front, 
thus simulating the motion the needle would see while riding in a groove.
Exerting much force in any other direction will destroy the needle, yup.
I always used a Discwasher SC-2 stylus brush.
  
Other than that, I mostly cringed while reading sindi's accounts of 
trying to economize on turntable and stylus parts.   But I suspect
I value my LPs a lot more than Sindi does.  I figure the cartridge
and stylus were designed to work as a system, and since a likely 
outcome of messing with that system is wearing away more vinyl
than necessary, I wouldn't want to risk it.
  
I'd never heard anyone talking about cartridge wear before, except as 
a function of age as various rubber parts oxidize a bit.  My current
cartridge is probably over ten years old.  1000 hours was the standard
figure I heard for the useful life of a diamond stylus; I have no
idea how many years that would be for me now, but in the old days
I got a new stylus every 12-18 months.   (I should get a new stylus,
but the price has doubled since last I got one, and I'm feeling 
cheap.)
 
Phono stylii and their diamond tips should not "break off" under normal use.
If this is happening repeatedly, there needs to be more gentleness
in handling the tonearm, or else something is very badly set up 
in tracking force, or stylus-cartridge match, or something.
I think this has happened to me maybe once in 30+ years.

#190 of 192: by C. Keesan (keesan) on Wed, Feb  6, 2002 (10:56):
I buy my LPs by the pound - it comes out to about 10 cents each.  One stylus
is $30 plus $7 shipping, or 370 records.  I readjusted tracking force down
to 1 gram and it still works (we had it at 2 grams).  IT was probably my bad
cleaning technique.  I got a better record cleaner and the needle no longer
picks up dust.

        If cartridge only wear out with age, why would someone recommend
replacing them every 2 years?  Do they wear out faster with use?  I was
reading that they contained a magnet - perhaps it oxidizes faster when warm?

#191 of 192: by Ken Josenhans (krj) on Thu, Feb  7, 2002 (18:59):
(Sindi, can I copy the last few responses about turntables & parts into a 
new item to be crosslinked between the Classical and Music conference?
Or should I just link this one...?  )

#192 of 192: by C. Keesan (keesan) on Thu, Feb  7, 2002 (20:52):
I doubt that the Music conference wants to know about classical LPs, so better
to just do a copy, I think.
 
Useful info:
Needle doctor  1-800-229-0644 is the one that has the right stylus for every
turntable I have challenged them with.
Needle.express.com 1-800-982-2620 did not return my phone call.  They had a
lower price on one stylus.
elexatelier.com returned my email with useful info and pricing
Radio Shack is on average the cheapest but has the smallest selection.
 
Kiwanis has some new or used cartridges and needles.  Anyone know the name
of the record store downtown that has some needles for sale?

-------(( new stuff starts here ))-------
 
-------((classical 64 <---> music 75))-------

        Now that I am interested in getting some things from vinyl
to CD-R, I find that I get quite a bit of acoustic feedback on 
the turntable.  Enough at normal listeing levels.  What can I 
look for in the turntable to see if something has failed to 
surpress vibrations?

Is this feedback from a speaker to the turntable? I suggest turning
the volume down (or off), or use earphones, if this is the case. Of
course, the turntable platform should be floating on springs or other
damping support, and be covered, but even then feedback will occur
if the speakers are close to the turntable, and certainly if they are
in the same cabinet (or in the same room....).

You could also try putting the turntable on something heavy (a pile of
bricks?) to reduce rumble.

        I tried a (somewhat sturdy) foam pad under the turntable.  Did
not think to try something like bricks.

        feedback is from speaker to turntable.  Rather noticeable
at low volumes that I used to listen to with no bother before.

What frequency range?

Have you tried pads ;under the speakers?

I'm not sure I have anything to offer Tim. I've never had acoustic
feedback from the speakers to the turntable before.  I've had issues
with footfalls on a wobbly floor, which were mostly solved by putting
the turntable in a corner on a high-mass stand (the top is lead wrapped in 
steel) but never feedback from the speakers.  To echo Rane, how close
are the speakers to the turntable, and has this distance changed 
since the system last worked well?

The vibrations might be transmitted through the wall as Ithink he has
everything set up against the same wall.  Or echoing off the wall?

We were at Tim's today playing with the plumbing and looked at his turntable.
I suggested plugging the turntable into the CD input to see if the problem
followed.  Jim listened and said the problem was in the speakers, that the
coil had broken loose from its paper surround and was rubbing on the loud
notes.  He was going to bring glue to inject into the space.  I suggested he
take a quick actual look at the woofers in case we happened to have a good
replacement.  Took of the covers and both speakers had disintegrating foam
surrounds.  The sound is probably from air moving the loose edges.  More of
a flutter than a rumble.  We may be able to glue on new foam surrounds with
a $25 (plus shipping) kit or replace the woofers for $50/pair.  

I suppose fixing speakers is worthwhile =)  and I think it would be 
fun.

The output signal from the standard magnetic phonograph cartridge is much 
lower than the volume from a CD player or tape deck.  The signal from
the cartridge requires a "preamp" to get it up to about the same level
as your other music sources.  On old equipment, the preamp circuitry
was built in, and hidden behind the phonograph input jacks.

Anyway, plugging a turntable into a CD or TAPE or AUX input will 
result in a very weak sound, if you hear much at all.  

I know, we were going to turn the volume way up - just to see if the problem
was in the turntable or in the phono input (preamp) part of the receiver.
As it turns out we were all wrong - not the turntable, or the receiver, or
the coil.
Jim recently adapted a ceramic cartridge to work in a turntable that came with
a magnetic cartridge so it would put out louder sound and therefore work in
the AUX input of his housemate's recently made cheap stereo system which has
no phono input.  We have one receiver with only ceramic phono input (aux does
not work) and I plug the tape deck into it, and another receiver has a phono
input that lets you plug either ceramic or magnetic turntable into it (or
possibly both - may try a CD player in the ceramic input).
You can also hear the output of a magnetic cartridge by putting your ear next
to it, without any amplification.  Ceramic cartridges are louder and could
be amplified with a horn before the days of electricity.

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