Last Agora, I entered an item discussing the on-line WWW sites for 
buying new cars.  In that item, I mentioned I'd probably start an item 
about used cars, and there seemed to be interest in the topic.  So, 
here it is!

40 responses total.

My background: I know very little about cars.  Generally speaking, I 
want it to go forward and stop, and I like good gas mileage.  I'm just 
not a car buff.

Usually I buy cars only when desperate to replace my existing car.  
Just now I've got a reliable 1992 Ford Taurus -- I bought it from 
tpryan -- and it shows no signs of not fulfilling my needs.  However, 
maybe it's time I grow up a bit and start planning for things, instead 
of reacting to disasters.

So, many of my questions have to do with, how do you decide what kind 
of car to buy?  There's me, and my 6 year old son.  No one else much 
rides in my car.

It seems to be impossible to buy a car without passenger airbags if 
it's much newer than my Taurus, but I'm against the idea of 
buying "safety" devices from which I have to protect people, 
particularly him.  A passenger airbag is a deadly threat to John.  I 
really doubt there's anything I can do about it, but can someone tell 
me when they started installing these dangerous devices in all cars?

Other than that, when I need another car, I'll want good gas mileage, 
reliability, and enough room for two people to use the vehicle to go 
on a week long vacation.  I don't want a truck, SUV, or any sort of 
van.  John prefers four doors to two; I'm not guaranteeing to him that 
our next car will have four doors though.

My biggest problem, reading the list of classified ads, is that in 
most cases, I don't know what the different cars are like.  I don't 
know what they look like, what to expect from them, or how much they 
are worth.  I know how to use www.consumerreports.com and www.kbb.com 
so I can find out about a specific car, but as for browsing the list 
of cars in the paper, I see lots of unfamiliar names in there.  I 
cannot tell, upon seeing an ad anywhere, if the car is worth my 
attention for the price being asked.  I have to look up every single 
one.

     Along with that car, and maybe even long BEFORE that car, you 
should buy a booster seat. Six year old boys, and grils as well, end 
up seriously hurt in accidents with seat belts because of the seat 
belts.


         It's on my list. Right at the top. I'm tired of sticking my 
son in the middle seat of my 92 van, and there isn't a passenger side 
airbag to worry about.

Cars made in the last couple of years that do not have a back seat have
airbag disable switches.  If the car has a back seat, current thinking
is that young children should be there instead of the front, anyway,
because they're at substantially less risk of injury.

I'm not sure when passenger side airbags became common.  They were
optional, for a while.  My guess is you'd have to go back before 1995,
maybe even earlier.  It depends partly on whether you're looking at cars
or light trucks, since airbags came relatively late to trucks.

Newer airbags are also less violent than the early ones.

I've bought two used cars in the past year. The first one was totaled by
an out-of-control semi, which led to the second one.

The absolute criterion for the used car(s) was that it was a station wagon
(but not a light truck), had a manual transmission, had 4WD or AWD (and
had air bags and ABS, for safety). This reduced the eligible cars that we
never looked at the used car ads in the papers, but used the web to set
the criterion search. The choice came down to Subarus. From there, it was
pretty easy to find all the used Subarus listed on the web within 200
miles. We ended up buying both of them from a dealer in Ferndale. 

        Why not keep the Taurus?

        It's going to need repairs. Well, so is every
        other car.
        
        A ten year old car is way easier to get service on
        than a new car. It's routine work for a place like
        Goodyear or Sears, when they bend over backwards
        to make it convenient for you. Parts are amazingly
        available.

        They talk to you. It's a great learning experience.
        It's satisfying to spend little money, and drive away
        in a *noticicably* improved vehicle (as opposed
        to spending comparable money on a payment for
        a newer car, and not getting *any* improvement
        at all).

I'll reiterate and concur with what was said above--air bags shouldn't 
really be an issue, 'cuz the little one should be in the back seat, in a 
booster.

Consumer Reports magazine's annual car issue is on newstands now.  It 
has a handy guide to used cars and their reliability.  It also has a 
breakdown of reliable used cars by price range, and a list of used cars 
to avoid.  

Also, there are a number of used car sites on the web, good for getting 
an approximate price range for the model you're interested in (as well 
as photos, since you say you don't often know what a particular car 
looks like). 

When it comes time to buy, have your mechanic give a good once-over.  
Many places will do this for free. Also check out www.carfax.com, which 
for a small fee can give you a complete title history on a car.

        The formal write-ups in Consumer Reports are pretty good.  The one-page
summaries that they have in their buying guides aren't all that useful,
though.  I'd look up the reviews in a library (or on their website, which is
available for a nominal fee) if possible.

all the cars I buy are used. Mainly because I never know how long I'm going
to be in this country. The first car I bought from my room-mate. I had seen
it around for 8 months, it never had any problems, I bought it, and except
for brakes, I never had any problems. The second was an Audi. That was a
mistake, only because the maintenane was so high. The third was the first car
I went out and bought on my own, with nobody else's input. It was a 93 Mazda
Protege. One of the best buys ever. That car took me everywhere, till I
totalled it. Now I have a Toyota Celica. It's a little rundown looking,
expecially since the antenna broke in the car wash, and it has a little rust,
but it runs great.

My priorities in buying a car is mileage, it has to be japanese, and the
engine has to sound healthy. I don't know too much about cars, but I think
I make a pretty good choice when I buy one. I always expect around 500
dollars of :unanticipated" maintenance after every buy, which is just about
right. But I've been happy with my purchases so far.

Thanks for the advice on booster seats, however the topic is "buying 
used cars".

re resp:6: I concur that I ought to keep the Taurus for a while yet.  
It's not going to last forever, though.  I drive about 30,000 miles per 
year.  Maybe I'll get another year out of the Taurus.  Maybe I'll find 
another car and then be able to sell the Taurus before it's flat out 
dead.  Maybe I'll even find some reason to *want* a particular car, 
rather than just whatever goes forward and usually stops.

Right now, my notion is to spend a couple of months trying to find out 
how to buy a used car.  Then, when I need to replace the one I've got 
now, I won't need to walk 30 miles each way to/from work for a couple 
of months while I figure out how to buy another car.  (Or do what I've 
always done in the past, picked the nearest car for sale and bought it 
on the spot.)

I look for something that is comfortable, and I check to see if I can 
reach the gas pedal without being right on top of the airbag.  I'm 
still short enough to get blasted by it, but some cars allow more 
distance than others.

For example: In a brand new Neon, I have to sit with my chest about 
eight or nine inches from the wheel to reach the pedals with my knee 
slightly bent.  The same position in my 1997 Cavalier had me twelve to 
fourteen inches from the wheel - HUGE difference, in my opinion.  A lot 
of this, I'm sure, has to do with design.  A Neon is a sub-compact car, 
and a Cavalier is a regular compact.

That said, I prefer compact or sub-compact cars for comfort and gas 
mileage.  They also tend to cost less.

Once I note comfort level, I look at mileage, repairs, history, ease of 
use (do I have to reeeeeeeach to adjust the stereo, does the back seat 
fold down for extra trunk storage, etc), and colour.  Yes, I'm 
picky.  :-P

I tend to lean toward GM cars.  My Cavalier was the best car I'd ever 
driven, and mine and my friends' have/had lasted for a Very Long Time.  
Mine had 150,000 miles on it when it died, and those were mostly pizza 
delivery miles.  My friends' have gotten anywhere from 175,000-200,000 
with an equal number of in-town and highway miles.

I'm looking for a new car right now, and I've been pricing out new/used 
Cavaliers all over lower Michigan.  I'm pretty loyal to them.  They 
corner like they're on rails, I can drive ten hours and not get 
uncomfortable, you can pack a squillion suitcases into the trunk and 
back seat, and the gas mileage is outstanding.

And they come in purple.  :)

shortie.

I remember test-driving a Prius and really liking it because there 
really was elbow room.

I remember there was this 1985 diesel Buick my friend drove (I had a 
chance to drive it a few times).. can't remember what model, but it 
had super gas mileage, sports supension, and was big enough to be very 
comfy on long rides.

btw, he had to mechanic the hell out of it.. he had to buy two cars.. 
one for the good engine, and one for the body, and then get parts from 
there.  But he's a good mechanic.

This response has been erased.

Yeah, those GM diesel cars were real maintenance hogs.

Re #12 - I'm not THAT short.  I'm 5'6", but I still fall into that "dangerous"
category.  :-P

<carson considers fashioning some off-color comment about chests and 
distances, but thinks better of it>

(it's been many years since I bought my one and only used car, but what
I've learned is that every make and model of car has certain quirks and
qualities of which one should be aware before purchasing.  for example,
I'll probably never buy a Ford or a post-1990 Mazda because the engines
tend to blow head gaskets and I have a notorious habit of doing the same.
there's no sense in doubling that quality and hoping the two cancel each
other out.  by the same token, if I ever purchase a Honda Civic, I will
make sure to get the timing belt changed at the appropriate intervals
instead of "pushing it.")

(I will probably buy a used car within the next year or so, so I'm glad
to see an item like this.)

resp:15  What the hell are you talking about?  He bought the car as a 
mechanic's special-- he didn't own it before.  There was an article in 
Car & Driver some time ago about that particular car being a well-
engineered engine for fuel economy and an example that you didn't need 
new and small.

Re #14:  Pull the other one...

Early GM diesels definitely had a "reputation".  I don't know how much
the later ones improved, but when gas became relatively cheaper again
and pollution control more important, they disappeared quite fast.

Timing belts are important to replace on many newer cars (and not just
Hondas).  In many newer engines, the piston & valves have "negative"
clearance -- the design relies on the piston never reaching the top of
its stroke while the valve is open.  If the timing belt breaks, one or
more valves is likely to remain open, impacting some piston, with
expensive results.  My volvo has the last year of B230F engines that
didn't have this feature.  Presumably I should also get slightly worse
gas mileage but I could push the timing belt change interval, if I
didn't mind risking being stranded.

   
  Buy it from someone you really trust.

  I bought the Toyota from my friend, and part time employer Lindsay.

  The first nite I had it the starter quit in Monroe. He came up to
Monroe, started the car, then took it to the shop and had the starter
replaced, which he paid for. Not a bit of trouble, other than the
usual crap that Toyotas go through when they're a little long in the
tooth.

   I would buy another car from him. He says that this car will last
a very long time with proper maintenence.

   My last excursion to Cleveland was fun. I only used 4 gallons of
gas to get there. I love little cars.

jep - i'll relate the methodology i was taught and which i witnessed
working soooooo well over the years.
  
go to a NEW car dealer!
  
find a salesman you get along with.
  
tell him/her you want to buy a USED car.
  
deflect the 'go over there' kneejerk answer.
  
tell him/her you wnat to buy a USED car from him/her - a trade in
from aother of the customers who is buying a NEW car.
  
the salesman who does lots of business has customers who buy 
new cars every year or so and trade in their old one. the salesman
knows who takes care of their cars based on the series of
tradeins and their resales.
  
my dad would give the *new* car salesman some particulars that
were importnat. then he wold say no quibble on price, just assurance
that hte car-to-be-bought would be in excellent conditoin nad have
come from one of that salesman's regular new car buyers.
  
then he'd tell the salesman to call when the 'right' car showed up,
no rush, no problem.
  
EVERYbody benefited with this method! the new car buyer (good tradin)
teh salesman (two cars sold for the grief of one) our family (we got
a car thst had a quality background analyzed by someone IN THE BUSINESS
every day).
  
 ... adn teh cost was a used car price, not a new car price eventhough
dad got damn-near-new cars every time.
  
the 'particulars that were importnat' of course, could be any criteria
YOU find importnat, obviously.
  
over the 25+ years i watched this process there was only one car that
needed any help before boought - and that one had a barely-recognized
problem (at that time).   rear axle whine, a problem i helped solve
for cadillac (part of a large team but i was inthte thick of it) as
thecars' interiors got quieter and quieter.
  
peripherally, that dealership got cutting edge educatoin identifying
and solving that problem and their service shop business eally took
off - even the non-cadillac level cars got fixed.
  
the only reason i know aofthe peripheral sutff was that three years
afterward, when dad went to get another 'new' one, the salesman brought
out hte service manager who related the unexpected benefits of my work
from the last time. 
  
(wanna talk about a puffed-head little kid-engineer basking in that
sort of spotlight?  oh, boy, let me tell ya ...............! <g>)
  
there aren't to many times i can remember being *that* inflated but
that isone of them.
  
anyway, the buying-a-used-car secret s out now - enjoy.

I understand the "secret", but I found that the saleman at the dealership
I dealt with was the same person for new and used cars.  That is, they
sold both, and all the salespersons had full information about both.
In this situation the "secret" is irrelevant.

hmmm, guess i didn';t solve *all* the axle-whinners, errr whine problems <g>.

I've used a version of the method toasty describes with good luck.

resp:20 yes, that friend said GM messed up their diesels for a while 
and told me this particular engine was when they got it right again.

Ah, all right.  I was thinking of their early ones, about which no one
seems to have anything good to say.

I found my biggest problem at car dealerships was convincing them I
didn't want to buy an SUV, and no, I didn't want to test-drive one just
to be sure.

Serious advice on buying a used car, don't be my Dad.
That said, my father taught me everything about buying used cars that he
knows, including what not to shop for.  He has had 20+ used cars in the last
26 years, not including the new ones and every disaster story.  So here are
some rough figures and concepts:
 
Whey buying used, figure that for every $200 you put into the initial price
you are getting a months service with relatively few problems.
 
Most cars from 1970 - 1980 have about 75-100k miles in them before major
failures.  1980 - 1985 about 100k miles, 1985-1995 about 125k miles in them,
1995 - 2002 about 150k miles in them.
 
If it has had an engine or transmission rebuilt/replaced...its on the way out,
deduct 25% of the expected life span for each system.

When taking it for a test drive (always test drive it, no matter who your
buying it from) drive it for at least 20 minutes, let it idle for at least
2 mins, hard brake it once (Panic stop from minimum of 40 mph to zero, see
how long it takes for the car to stop.)  Get a mechanic to look it over.
 
Finally, expect it to fail, dramatically, and price is no indicator of
quality.  My dad bough one car for 3k and it blew out in a month,
starter/motor/trans failure in a week.  We also bought a student car for
500.00, piece of crap, but it ran like a champ for two years.

Wow.  Your dad's luck has been a lot worse than my dad's luck.  I think
part of it is my dad found a car dealer early on that was honest.  He
never bought a bad car from this guy.  In fact, there were a couple of
occasions where he told him, "you don't want to buy this car."  You're
more likely to find this kind of honesty in a small town, since word
gets around fast and you don't have a constant supply of victims like in
a larger city.  A dishonest dealer in a small town is not likely to stay
in business long.

We were given a 1987 car by a friend with 150,000 miles and nothing major went
wrong with it until a couple of years ago when the exhaust system rusted out.
We have had it maybe 8 years now.  Cheap car (Dodge Plymouth Colt).  He took
good care of it.  The neighbor gave us a 1986 that is fine except for the rust
(hole in floor etc.).  Probably the same miles.

My dad bought a number of used cars from service stations & repair
shops that sold 'em on the side (for customers unloading old cars).  
The places were locally owned & knew dad as a long-term customer,
so they gave him good cars too keep him that way. 

re giznoirt above :
  

 When taking it for a test drive (always test drive it, no matter who your
 buying it from) drive it for at least 20 minutes, let it idle for at least
 2 mins, hard brake it once (Panic stop from minimum of 40 mph to zero, see
 how long it takes for the car to stop.)  Get a mechanic to look it over.

  
i didn;'t add this but i should have ... if if has gages (or not, i guess)
at idle turn on ALL the electrical stuff! inclluding cigartette lighter
and see what happens. it should increase the idle (a/c shold do that
all by itself) and (as i found out with fuel injectin) not stall.
  
nursing a bad-battery/charging system car home one night recently
i found out that teh non-carbureted cars stall on low-volts. sure
was a surprise to figger that one out on the fly.
  

Older cars with open loop control systems & carburetors had to do weird
things with A/C & automatic transmission for the idle speed.  So, yes,
on those cars, engaging either would make a difference (of course,
engaging an automatic is going to affect engine speed anyways).  I have
never heard of a car where engaging electrical accessories will increase
idle.  Most newer cars have closed loop control systems and "constant
idle"; there's no reason why idle would increase for any accessory on
such a car.  On my car (1988 volvo, efi) when the a/c cycles on or off,
the engine idle speed glitches slightly.

On *very* old cars, at idle, the battery would not charge.  On those
cars, the headlights would get noticeably brighter when engine RPMs were
increased.  This is still true on many modern motorcycles.

Nearly all modern spark ignition engines depend on a functional
battery/electrical system.  The only exception I can think of is some
lawnmowers which use a magneto instead.  EFI certainly depends
electricity; E = "electronic".  If the battery fails "in operation", the
car may continue to operate until the electrical load exceeds the
charging sytem's supply -- ie, high load, low supply - headlights & all
accessories on and engine idling "in gear" stopped with an automatic.  I
was once in a car where the battery post had rotted through (battery
acid) and snapped.  Car worked fine until a stop light, then it was a
total systems failure.

Older diesel engines did not need electricity - so on such vehicles
(probably mostly trucks) a battery failure won't kill the engine.
Starting it might be a problem (although there are diesels that can be
started using compressed air or other means).  I believe modern diesels
are switching to the use of electronic closed loop systems (pollution,
economy, efficiency), so a functional electrical system will be required
there.

The april issue of CR has a much more complete list of things to look
for in a used car.  I don't think they mention anything about idle speed
(which on most cars is hard to judge anyways) but they do mention hard
braking, also having a friend watch to see if the wheels line up with
the car's motion (if not, could be frame or wheel alignment issues),
also looking for signs of car repair work, and other stuff.  A good
mechanic should be able to tell you if there's anything "off" about the
car's idling or other characteristics, and can look for a lot of other
things (wear in suspension components, brake pad life, battery
condition) that you could not necessarily tell just by driving.

You should still budget money for things the mechanic might not catch.
The older the car, the more likely it is that really strange stuff could
fail.  Not all of these are practical to find, so any older car *is* a
gamble.  This is why they're worth less money.

Re #33: My Honda will increase the idle if the electrical load is high
enough.  Actually, it's kind of interesting.  Honda lets the engine
computer control the alternator field voltage.  It's not uncommon, on a
summer day with the blower fan and most other accessories off, for me to
look down when the car's idling and see only 12V on my voltmeter.  If I
switch on some high-current accessories, or idle long enough for the
battery voltage to get down farther, the ECU will switch the alternator
back on, the voltage will jump up to 13.75 or so, and the idle will kick
up a hundred RPM or so.  I suspect this is a way to improve fuel economy
and idle emissions.  I've also noticed that in this mode, the ECU will
sometimes switch the alternator off when I accellerate and back on when
I coast in gear.

I've noted three distinct charging "modes" on this car.  One is no
charging -- the alternator field is essentially switched off, and the
car is running on the battery, with an electrical system voltage around
12V.  Another is a sort of float charge, where the battery is being kept
charged but the voltage is around 13.5-13.75V.  (I don't have a digital
voltmeter, just an expanded-scale analog one, so this is approximate.) 
Then there's the "the battery is really low and we need to charge it
fast" mode, like when I start the car and turn the heater blower on high
on a very cold winter day.  Under those circumstances I've seen charging
voltages as high as 14V.

the "12V" automotive "standard" is actually 13.8VDC, so a gauge indicating
14VDC isn't a reason for concern.

I realize that.  I just find the variation interesting.  Other cars I've
had used fixed setpoints on their voltage regulators.

True, the variation is interesting.  #35 was directed more at people who
didn't realize 12V isn't always 12V, not so much at you.

<< 14.7 vdc, but that may have been altered since in inestigated.>>

In English please?

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