Discuss any problems of getting from here to there by vehicle in winter
weather.

64 responses total.

Jim recently found two types of 'dry gas'  or gasoline antifreeze in the
store, one being methyl alcohol and the other isopropyl alcohol in cute little
plastic containers with funnel tops.  The second says it displaces more water.
It also costs twice as much.  Next door to Murray's auto supply is a pharmacy
selling 91% isopropyl alcohol for half the price of the Murray's product. 
He asks if there is any difference in composition between these products. 

Also, why would his fuel pump have stopped working.  It worked in April and
he has not driven the car since then.  He is currently replacing it with a
new $35 model.  Did ice freeze in it and damage it?

Meijer has 99% isopropanol. 

However even 99% isopropanol *contains water*, which will separate out
when mixed with gasoline (water is *very* insoluble in gasoline). 

Using anhydrous methanol or isopropanol is adding an "oxygenate" to the
gasoline, very similar to ethanol in many respects - you are concocting
your own "gasohol". There are drawbacks, however: 

Methanol has been found to damage some fuel system gaskets, at least
at one time. Corrosion inhibitors are required with methanol.

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/clean/cf14.htm gives some ranges for use
of MBTE, ethanol and methanol as fuel additive.

Any oxygenate will tend to *absorb* moisture and may enhance the
emulsification of water into gasoline. If this separates out and freezes,
or causes corrosion, in the wrong parts, it could be trouble.

So...beware.

The idea of 'drygas' or 'gas line antifreeze' is to emulsify the water into
the gas so it can't freeze, and so the engine doesn't get it in one big
slug.  91% alcohol would be less desirable because it's presumably already
9% water.

Jim also wonders whether it would help to pour dry gas into the filter before
running the car, in case the ice has formed in there.  (This is for his
housemate's car, which he is trying to fix at the same time).  I will let him
know that you two are implying that the store product is more than 97%
isopropanol (which is what he can buy at the drugstore - not 99%).  

Absent any other factor, the freezing point of emulsified water is
exactly the same as the freezing point of plain pure water.  An emulsion
is merely a mechanical mixture of two fluids.

Jim is annoyed at his car, which would not start, and he just finished
changing the fuel pump (he proved the gasoline was not going through the old
one) for $35, and now it still won't start, unless he pours gasoline into the
air entry to the carburetor so now he has to take that apart and clean it.
What might have caused both of these parts to go bad since April, when the
car was last driven?  Could it have been ice?  He cannot sell it easily unless
it will start, regardless of the exhaust system.  He says he does not want
to own a car.  The neighbor who gave us his old 1986 car (which does start)
offers to lend us his newer station wagon with a car-top carrier for long
items.  (Still won't handle refrigerators as well as a hatchback).  

The gas in a carburetor not run since April could well evaporate and
leave "gum", which can "gum" the works. 

I suspect gas that has gone bad.  It could also be a bad electric fuel
pump, if this car has one -- sometimes they seize.

Since it runs if he pours gas into the carb, we know the ignition system
is working and the engine has compression.  The first thing I would do
is see if fuel is actually getting to the carburator.  Take the hose off
the carburator, stick it in some kind of container, and (carefully!) see
if fuel comes out when you crank the engine.  (On some cars, merely
turning the key on will be enough.)  If fuel comes out, the problem is
in the carburator.  If fuel doesn't come out, there's a bad fuel pump or
a blockage someone in the system.

s/someone/somewhere/

But if you read carefully my previous response, you will note that Jim just
replaced the bad fuel pump ;)

How often would one need to run a car so that these things don't happen?

Can someone explain to me (who has not looked inside a car) just how the fuel
pump, hose, carburetor, engine, etc., are connected together?  Jim is a lot
better at fixing things than explaining them.  He says he wants an electric
car if he has to have a car because they don't have any of the above to go
bad and if you store them in a garage to prevent rust, and charge the battery
a bit once in a while, they ought to be usable twice a year without clogging
or freezing.  But nobody has offered him a free used electric car.  

The other solution is a car coop but there are rumors that they would have
to pay astronomical insurance rates.  Borrowing the neighbor's car would work
except we go to Detroit twice a year for a few days at a time.  Biking from
the train station (15 miles through the more interesting parts of Detroit)
would be possible but I don't like biking in late December due to ice. 
Getting a ride (30 miles round trip) from the train station would work. 
Detroit might conceivably even run buses to Warren.

If you want  a  car to use just twice a year I suggest you rent one.
The cost to you would be less than the insurance and registration 
to keep a car yourself,  not to mention the problems of maintaining
a car run only a couple of times a year. 

The cost of renting a car is actually quite a bit more than the cost of owning
one which you only insure for a few days a year and do your own maintenance
on.  It was $30/3 days for rental plus $75 for the insurance to rent a car.
Owning a car costs $27/year for a license plate plus $20/month for insurance
and our insurance company lets us suspend it for all but a few days a year.
This year it is also costing $35 for a fuel pump - total cost $27 plus $35
plus a few dollars for insurance.  And $4 for dry gas.  Still way under the
$200 or so it would cost to rent twice a year.  But also a lot of Jim's time.
He is still trying to track down where between the fuel pump and the
carburetor air intake is clogged, one step at a time.  Cheap entertainment
and free education.  At least it is warmer out today.  

Would it help to run it in the driveway for a few minutes every month?

You want to run it long enough for it to fully  heat up and then some
to top off the battery charge. You can condensation in the cylinders
and in the oil if you run it only a short time.

check with SMART to see if there is a bus from Detroit Amtrak (or the 
Royal Oak Amtrak station) to Warren. 

When you get it running again, buy a bottle of Stabil.  Add it to the
gas tank right before you fill the tank.  It will keep the gas from
degrading in storage.

As for your other question...
The fuel pump is what moves the fuel from the fuel tank to the
carburator.  In modern cars it's an electric device either in or near
the tank.  In older cars it's mechanical and mounted on the engine.  The
carburator takes the liquid gasoline and mixes it with air from the air
cleaner, turning the gasoline into a fine mist in the process.  It's got
a lot of complicated little passages and nozzles to help regulate the
fuel mixture.  From there, the fuel/air mixture travels through the
intake manifold to the intake valves, and from there into the cylinders
to be burned.

This reminds me of the time I was on a long trip late at night with a
bunch of people and in order to pass the time and stay awake I asked a
young woman to try to explain how an automobile operates. She didn't know
much at all about autos, so her explanation was absolutely hilarious and
instead of being in danger of falling asleep I was in danger of driving
off the road while laughing so hard.

In regard to the above - I've generally had the feeling that gasoline is
already concocted to do what it is meant to do, and that these
"additives", like STP and Stabil, etc, are mostly "snake oil" remedies
that do more to empty your pockets than anything for the operation of a
vehicle. They may be otherwise harmless, but they may also be detrimental.

Jim's car is 1987 (older, I presume).  He asks if anyone has an unwanted
rooftop carrier for the 1986 car that mounts to side gutters.  Today he will
crawl under the 1987 car to see if he can improvise a new exhaust system or
patch for the hole in the old one (the part leading to the muffler).  He is
afraid if he tries to replace it something will either not come off or will
break.

Yesterday he got it running by using a bike pump on some hose (presumably
between fuel pump and carburetor) to put enough pressure on the system to
unstick some valve (he surmises).  He still thinks the fuel pump that he
replaced tested bad as well, but maybe it would have functioned for a while
longer.

If he fixes the exhaust system we have to decide which if either car to keep.

Jim and I both get sick from diesel fumes so don't ride buses.  I wish this
country still had a good electric trolley system.

Yes, I have a gutter-mounting roof rack I will sell for $20. In fact,
it came off a 1986 car, so should feel right at home again. E-mail me.

Jim was hoping someone would want to give him the old roof rack for free. 
Kiwanis used to throw out all the ones that came in since there is no longer
any market for them.  We can ask Kiwanis to save us one.  Jim used to find
them at the curb (like bed rails on wheels, they were all over the place).

Re #16: I agree in most cases, but Stabil has a good reputation, and I've
used it with good results.  Gasoline you buy at the pump is formulated with
the idea you'll use it within a few weeks, because most people do.  Putting
in the kinds of additives that are in Stabil would increase the price
without doing most people any good.

How have you demonmstrated it has had an effect different from not having
used it? 

Jim says there is a strong solvent called carburetor cleaner.
In the process of trying to get at the saw he is cleaning out all the bikes
from the garage and making space for one car - which one?
We have 14 aluminum front wheels for mountain bikes and three mountain bikes
without front wheels.
He was supposed to be crawling under the car today but got sidetracked.
He may do it tomorrow in the freezing rain instead.  Or in the dark.

Re #21: I haven't, admittedly.  I wouldn't be eager to ruin a $300
carburator to prove the point.

That fear is what all those manufacturers of various concoctions to add to
your gas or oil count on. I find it very hard, though, to find reports of
good scientific tests of them. That may be in part that no one wants to
spend the money to show some $3 can of stuff doesn't work, as hardly
anyone would learn about that (and the company can always quickly
repackage the stuff). 

I never used any concoctions in the 1986 Subaru I recently scrapped.  The
engine was doing fine, the only engine work had been replacing the timing
belt, it used little oil, gas mileage was near new. However the body had
rusted beyond safety limits at 187,000 miles. Using any additives would
have been just wasting money. 

I look up the MSDS for Sta-Bil Fuel Stabilizer, a Gold Eagle Co product.
Its composition is given as

     0 - 5 %    ADDITIVE  (that's the snake oil)
    95 - 100 %  HEAVY AROMATIC NAPHTHA (SOLVENT NAPHTHA)
     0 - 5 %    NAPHTHALENE

That's the catch in MSDSs, of course. They don't have to identify all
the ingredients chemically - just identify the hazards associated with
the product. 

Carburetor cleaner is basically strong detergent.  You use it to clean
off varnish and other nasty stuff, typically after disassembling the
whole thing, while trying not to lose any springs or strip any threads.
I expect it would only do bad stuff if put in the gas tank - it probably
has a liberal amount of water in it.

Stabil is supposed to be good when you plan to store something for a
long period of time.  Like lawn mowers for the winter, etc.  It's
certainly true that if you store gasoline *long* enough, it *will* do
interesting stuff.  Straight run gasoline long ago might not have, but
most modern gasoline has been run through a whole bunch of bizarre
chemistry geared towards improving its properties in internal combustion
engines, not for long-term storage capacity.  So if you leave it sitting
around 10 years, it may not be the same stuff.  My experience has been
that gasoline left sitting 1-2 years does not do strange stuff, and that
lawn mowers are generally not that picky...

I have also heard good things about techron -- this is a fuel addictive
that apparently does have some ability to clean up varnish and other
stuff in carburetors just in normal operation.  This is not something
you would want to run all the time in your gasoline - but something to
try if it starts to run a bit more rough before you start collecting
jars to put all the bits in.

FWIW, a while ago Click & Clack said (in answering a question from someone
who didn't drive all that often) that gasoline is formulated differently for
winter & summer - more volatile in winter - and that there is an assumption
that you're filling up at least every few weeks.

Jim last put gas in the car in early April, or maybe March.  It ran when he
moved it out of the driveway shortly after to put a different car in first,
some time in the summer.  He is back to playing with his bikes and is
returning one stem for one that might work better.  Phooey on cars.  The new
stem is $7 plus shipping - you can put together a nice bike for the price of
one car repair (or buy an expensive bike for the price of an exhaust system).
You can also work on your bikes in the semi-heated basement without rain on
you.

Or you can "drive" on your bike in the rain to Detroit.....

Re #26: That's true, though I don't think it matters as much with fuel
injection as it does with carburation.

Diesel fuel, compared to gasoline, varies all over the place.  It's a
relatively unprocessed fuel, with almost nothing in the way of additive
packages (unless you buy 'premium' diesel.)  The cetane rating (a
measure of how easily the fuel ignites; higher is better) is almost
never posted at the pump because it varies a lot and degrades as the
fuel is stored.  By law diesel in the U.S. is supposed to be at least 40
cetane.  In practice I've heard that what comes out of the pump is
usually between 36 and 40, rarely higher.  Unfortunately there's no
legal definition of what constitutes 'premium diesel', either, so you
never know what you're getting.  Not surprisingly, a lot of diesel
owners seem to prefer to provide their own 'additive package' in the
form of a fuel treatment.

A more volatile formulation is going to burn differently.  That will
make the same difference in a carburetor as in fuel injection: the main
advance fuel injection actually makes is most modern EFI systems have
closed loop feedback and can adjust for different fuel properties,
whereas most carburetor systems were open loop & couldn't adjust
themselves.

Fuel you buy in locations at high altitudes (such as in Colorado) is
also different.  For one thing, the octane rating varies.  The air is
thinner, so fuel burns slower, so you need a lower octane rating to get
fuel that burns faster.  Also, especially for best mpg, you want a less
rich mixture, again because you have less air.  For carburetor systems,
that can translate into actual physical changes (different jet sizes) in
addition to different adjustments to get optimal performance.  Usually
that's not worth doing unless you plan to spend a lot of time at high
altitudes.

Newer cars don't have carburetors?

Jim crawled under the car and the part with the holes is a flexible pipe, but
it is in a mesh, and he thinks he can replace the flexible part with sheet
metal and it should work for a while.  He picked up some muffler parts which
are the wrong size and plans to exchange them (and also drop off some bike
wheels at his favorite exchange spot).  

Are cars sold in the mountains adjusted differently?

Jim is about to put out his sawed up bike frames in recycling for a fifth time
this week, having talked to the fleet manager who lives around the corner from
him.  They are supposed to take anything that is scrap metal, fits in the bin
without projecting, and weighs up to 20 pounds (he weighed it all including
the bin).  Last week they slapped a green sticker onto his bike parts telling
him which types of plastic they accept and to remove the lids.  I suspect the
Recycle place is having trouble recruiting literate workers.  If this fails,
he will try putting out his two bins in front of the manager's house.  We have
had no problem getting five computers per bin picked up.  

Yes, newer cars usually don't have carburetors.  EPA standards, MPG
requirements, falling technology prices, and reduced maintenance needs
make modern EFI a real winner.

At least when carburetors were standard, yes, cars were adjusted
differently, and in some model years, even came in special "mountain"
versions with actual different hardware.  Cars built for California
(which has stricter pollution requirements) are still often slightly
different - and it is not always possible to take a car built for the
other 49 states and succesfully register it in California.

Are EFI's harder to fix yourself?  Jim does not want to work on computerized
cars.  He thinks maybe the guy driving the recycling truck is considering his
bike parts in the same category as car parts, which they don't pick up.  But
now that the local junkyard is gone, and the one west of town no longer
accepts scrap metal, what are you supposed to do to recycle car parts?  

Jim's housemate suggested getting two diameters of pipe and clamping them
together around the hole in the exhaust.  Jim found the right diameters late
last night, also something that will work as a muffler.  It does not have to
work perfectly, just get the fumes from the front to the back of the car and
muffle the noise somewhat.

A good quality used bike can sell for much more than a newer used car.  Cars
don't last well.  Bike parts are also more interchangeable, I think.

Re #32: You can register a 49-state car in California if you meet certain
requirements for how long you've owned it that are designed to keep
California residents from buying cars out of state.  It also has to have all
of its pollution control equipment still installed, and it has to pass an
emissions test under the standards it was built to.  (Not the stricter CA
standards, though.)

Re #33: EFI is harder to fix yourself, but generally doesn't need as much
attention, in my experience.

I throw my car parts into the dumpster at the back of my apartment complex.
I don't think it's possible to recycle rust.

How in the world can a "good quality used bike" cost more than a "newer used
car"?!? Hundreds of dollars versus thousands of dollars are not "equal" using
the math I learned in school.

A used bike can be sold for 1300 dollars, believe it or not.  There are cars
under ten years old around selling for less than that.  

Rust can certainly be recycled, they process it to remove the oxygen.
THere are junk yards in Ypsi that might take metal.  I hear that the problem
is this country is importing steel from other countries that have better
processing plants, cheaper than it can recycle the steel.

Jim is about to try the clamp and sleeves approach.
Someone gave his housemate a roof rack (rails) that Jim modified so the clips
would fit his 1986 car so that he did not have to drill holes in the roof -
it clips to the gutters instead.  

The ships that bring the steel to Michigan also bring in things like zebra
mussels and unwanted species of fishes.

Jim also took the rugs out of the 1986 car and removed the piece of metal
hanging down that used to e the floor until someone stepped on it, and
replaced it with something solider.  Alos lots of dirt and leaves.

I am telnetted - excuse the lag.  I think Windows telnetting has a lag but
DOS telnetting does not seem to - must slow the computer down too much to be
running Windows at my end.

It's a rare bike that sells used for $1000.  Mine cost $50.

Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that $1,000+ used bike
seeing as how a real nice new bike can be had in that price range.  All I
can come up with is a top of the line racing, touring or mountain bike
with top of the line components and probably an exotic frame, like
aluminum or composite. If so, the used car equivalents would probably be
Ferrari, Mercedes or Land Rover, which do not go for under $1,000 used,
even if ten years old.

You can spend a *lot* of money on a new bicycle if you want - and it
wouldn't surprise me if the used equivalent were still pretty pricey.

A^2 has had a more or less organized attempt to get rid of the junk
yards in town for at least the past 20 years.  That's why there aren't
many left.  Guess the old-fashioned form of recycling isn't efficient
enough at producing taxable revenue.

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