This is the item where you enter your automotive tale of woe in hopes that a
knowledgeable grexer will shed some light on your problem, and therefore what
you can/should do and what to expect from the repairman.

128 responses total.

Well it looks like my 1987 Sable is starting to act up again.  Ever since
I bought it used it has had a nasty habit of getting into snits where it
stalls.  This will most often happen after having been driven 20-25 minutes.
The telltale sign of trouble is when it starts to buck; you can see the tach
needle dip toward zero before bouncing back.  The agony can be prolonged if
I slip into neutral and rev the engine while at stoplights.  But it's a good
bet that if I'm not about to reach my destination, I'm in trouble.  And forget
about driving the car again for an hour or two.

The latest trick it's pulling is after it's stalled for the 3rd or so time,
when you try to start it, the starter/engine don't even turn over.  On the
surface it would seem like a dead battery (which I have on occasion caused
by trying to start the car after a stalling fit), but it's not:  After 
sitting for a half hour or so, the car will start just fine.

A sure fire way to induce stalling is to enter stop-an-go driving conditions
for any extended period of time.  All this "stalls after being driven awhile
starts again after resting" behavior suggests some heat-related problem.  At
the same time I wonder about the electrical system.  I've taken to not using
the fan, heater, and radio just in case (irrational, I know!).

The dealerships I've taken it to haven't been able to do anything concrete
or lasting about this problem.  Naturally it's not gonna act up after only
having been driven a mile to the garage.

So, any ideas about the source of this behavior?  The "won't turn over" 
phenomenon?  Are there any knowledge bases on the 'net/'web that catalog
symptoms like these and suggest possible causes?  I'd like to go to the
garage (it's inevitable that I will/must) with something concrete next time.

  I think what the world needs is a "rent-a-diagnostician" service where
  you could go and get someone who'd ride around in your car with you
  during your daily routine so they could see the trouble when it occurred.
  It seems like mechanics are too rarely able to duplicate intermittent
  problems in the shop..

  I know that when I was doing computer support the problem descriptions
  I got from people were often misleading or even flat-out wrong.  I'm sure
  mechanics suffer from the same problem (as well as the related, but 
  substantially more dreaded "clueless guy who's *sure* he knows what the
  problem is" problem..)  So what's the solution, when description of a
  problem is an insufficient substitute for direct observation and direct
  observation is impractical?

        Sounds to me like an interrmittant open. It happens whe the component
is hot. Try an electrical (auto) repair. Find one that will agree to check
it at the appointed time and drive it enough to have it happening then.

Yep, one of my dealership encounters ended with a wire replacement supposedly
due to this reason.  Obviously they didn't find the totality of the problem.
What kind of component can exhibit this behavior.  Do you know the names of
any electrical (auto) repair places.

And BTW, another ditty I should have mentioned that makes me suspect my
electrical system:  Every one and awhile after I take a short trip, when I
start the car again, certain electrical things don't work:  Turn signals,
radio, fan, ???  After the car sits awhile, the next time it's started, these
systems work as normal.  A clue?

You ought to be able to get a mechanic to take it for a road test.  From
your description, it sounds like if the mechanic drives it around town
for a day, it ought to misbehave (is it this predictable?) There is
little reason for you to be taking your car to a dealership to have it
fixed.  Think about it -- why would the dealership do a good job getting
your very old car to run, when they'd rather sell you a newer car off
their lot?

The battery could still be the cause of the "not starting" problem;
typically, if left alone, batteries will recover their charge, so if
your battery were almost, but not quite dead--say, enough juice for one
start, but not 4 in a row, it might behave just as you describe.  One
tell-tale sign of this is, when you try to start the car, if instead of
turning over, you hear a "click-click-click" sound, that's the starter
relay clicking in, the starter discharging the battery enough that it
can't hold the relay, then the relay popping out, and the battery
regaining enough juice to engage the relay.  Some other things to check
if you suspect a battery problem are the battery clamps, alternator, and
belt.  Of these, the belt is trivial - it should be tight, and not have
any cracks or be frayed, and the inside of the belt should feel slightly
rough - and it should *not* feel glazed.  The alternator is something a
garage can check for you - sometimes they can lose a diode or an open
coil, which causes it to lose efficiency.  It's not uncommon for
batteries to leak a little acid, especially as they get old, and this
acid usually ends up on top of the battery (near the vents), where it
can then attack the battery clamps.  This can cause corrosion in the
clamps, which can then manifest itself in all sorts of ways.  It would
be perfectly believable for it to manifest itself as a thermal
intermittant, which could cause many of the symptoms you describe.

Fortunately, this is easy to check, and correct.  The clamps should
*not* have any white powder or deposits on or near near them.  White
powder is a sure sign of battery acid.  Also, after starting the car,
the battery posts should not get at all warm; if they do, that shows
there's resistance in the clamp, and that's something you want to get
rid of.  This is also easy to fix.  All you need to do is take the
clamps off the battery, clean the clamps and posts until you see lots of
shiny metal in the contact area, wash any dried white deposits off
(distilled water works great for this; don't get the white stuff on your
hands though - it may still be acidic), then put the clamps on, tighten
them so that they're tight and can't be wiggled at all, and coat with
vasoline or grease (to stop any new corrosion from forming).  If the
clamps are heavily corroded it's worth getting new battery cables put in
(this is a cheap thing to do); or, as an emergency measure only, you can
rap the post with shiny bare copper wire and tighten the clamp down
really tight over this (so that the copper digs into the clamp and
battery post).  It's also worth checking the water level in the battery
- even the new "sealed" batteries lose water with age.  It is typically
possible to pry something off the top of the battery to expose the tops
of the cells, and the plates within all cells should be covered with
water.  If they aren't, you can top the cells off with distilled water.
This works well to extend the life of a battery, but eventually, you'll
still need to get a new one.  Batteries last longest if treated well; if
continually allowed to run down, they'll wear out much sooner.

Some other completely unrelated systems to suspect are the cooling, and
oil lubrication systems.  A closed thermostat in the cooling system
could result in overheating; as could low water levels.  A blocked
passage in the engine or radiator could also cause problems.  You
definitely want to rule these out as early as possible; as either spells
the real danger of serious engine damage, which would not be worth
fixing in a car this old.

Another possibility is some sort of fault in the wiring system or the
fuses.  An intermittent here in the ignition circuit might well cause
the "won't start" symptom, and an intermittent elsewhere might result in
the accessories not working problem that you also describe.  One thing
that can cause this problem is a flood - if the car was ever involved in
a flood, it may well work perfectly once removed from the flood, but the
water can cause accellerated corrosion problems in the electrical
circuitry all over the car that may take months or years to manifest
itself.  After a major flood, it is not uncommon for unscrupulous
dealers to ship affected cars to remote areas of the country where
potential buyers won't think to ask if the car had been flooded.  This
is one of many reasons why you want to hire your own mechanic to look at
any car that you are thinking of buying - they can tell you about
problems like this that you might really like to know before you buy.
Even in old cars that were never flooded, problems like this can happen;
the issue here is that salt water can leak in and affect random
connectors or other elements of the electrical system.

Something else to keep in mind, especially with an older car, is that
it's quite possible for you to be experiencing more than one completely
unrelated problem.

        The lights acting up suggest a possible ground problem.

Thanks for the tips so far!  It's true that the dealership would wanna sell
me a new car, but they also make lotza $ doing repairs/maitenance.  I would
hope that they would have checked at least the obvious things you mentioned,
and ruled them out.  Maybe I hope for too much...

It's like any other business.  There are good people in the business,
and bad.  As a rule, dealerships don't tend to have very bright people.
They may be new to the business, or not very competent.  This doesn't
matter much to the dealership, because they make much of their money
other ways, and most of the cars they fix are newer cars that are easier
to fix.  [ It is a lot easier to fix a 6 month old car where the plastic
hasn't gotten brittle, the nuts haven't trusted in place, and things
aren't covered with a thick layer of gunk, than it is to fix a 10 year
old car. ]  However, individual dealerships can vary.  Some automotive
brands are much pickier about things - for instance Saturn, which
consistently scores high in surveys of customer satisfaction, clearly
has very rigorous standards for becoming a dealer.  On the other hand,
it's relatively easy to qualify to become a Ford or Chevrolet dealer, so
you can find some really bad dealers for these brands; complete with
terrifyingly incompetent mechanics.

It's useful to get references from other people, because that's one good
way to track down the good mechanics (or to avoid the really bad ones).
It's also extremely useful to learn enough to look under the hood and
recognize the obvious problems.  A lot of things will be too complicated
or messy to bother with, but you can save yourself a lot of time &
trouble by recognizing simple problems; also generally speaking, the
more you know about your car, the easier it will be to deal with the
mechanic.

For an american made car, the first place I'd take it to is
        Steve Steeb
        930-2277
        (between State & S. Industrial...)
I don't drive an american car anymore, but when I did, this is where I
took it, and I was always happy with the service I got.  Many mechanics
don't like working with older cars (rust, brittle plastic, etc.) but
Steve was always very patient and willing to stretch as much life out of
my old car as possible, as economically as possible.  Steve also has an
extremely clean garage, with green growing plants!  He also works on
british sports cars, but I think that's mostly for fun.

Your last mechanic should have checked this, but the *next* one definitely
should check the engine control module (ECM). My Sable also had a problem with
bucking and surging before it died altogether. It was the ECM . . .

i also recommend Steeb Service.  Steve is really cool.  Jan picked up on the
two things i thought to check, the battery post/clamp connections and the
thermostat.  Also, for electrical problems, i recommend Steve at Main Street
Motors.  He is an electrical engineer, and a good guy also.  
their prices are a little steeper, though.

I checked out the battery & environs, and things looked OK - no telltale signs
of leakage or corrosion.

As far as *engine* overheating, I must take blame for letting fluid levels get
too low.  I can well imagine how an overheated engine would want to stall,
regardless of any electrical system flakiness.  We shall now see if maintain-
ing proper fluid levels mitigates the stalling phenomenon.  Of course this
would have nothing to do with electrical system flakiness, due to heat or
otherwise.

cyclone:  What year was your Sable?  What did you do, if anything, about the
ECM?  Cost?

I've been taking my car to the Saturn of Ann Arbor service center for
maintenance, and I've been pretty happy with them.  It's a fairly new Saturn,
so I'm not sure how they are on old cars or cars that aren't Saturns.

My ancient Nissan pick-up truck has what sounds a lot like part of the problem
albaugh is talking about.  After I've been driving it for a while, it starts
shaking or even stalling when idling.  Since I can make the problem go away
by keeping my foot lightly on the gas pedal when idling, I've been assuming
that whatever it is that controls how much gas gets to the engine when idling
needs to be adjusted.  Mostly, I just don't drive it enough for it to be worth
the time to deal with it.

I've got a 1990 Sable. I have a friend who is a mechanic; he diagnosed the
problem, then bought and installed the new ECM all for about $100-$150. For
a competent mechanic it is not hard to diagnose. I believe my mechanic
diagnosed it while it was still in the engine bay, although I believe you can
also remove it yourself and take to Murray's (for instance) for a diagnosis.
Also, FWIW, I believe there may be more than one ECM-type devices in the
Sable, so check 'em all (a call to the local dealership is always good for
some free info if you have any other question).

re 12:  That sounds like the idle speed setting is too low.  While warming
up, a mechanism forces the speed higher.  It's adjustable by a screw on the
side of the carb (see the Haynes manual).  I used to have this problem on a
VW beetle, and just learned to drive with "manual idle control" (keeping a
foot lightly on the gas at *all times, including braking).  Dunno why it
wasn't fixed, unless the carb was worn out or something.

I would also check the fuel filter. My Sable still stalls sometimes (usually
right after starting) and my mechanic has advised we check that out . . .

when checking fuel filters, be aware that there might be more than one. 
sometimes, idiotic designers place filters *inside* the gas tank.  consult
a service manual to determine if this is the case with your car.

Oh, one tip I learned the hard way:  when replacing the old fuel filter (on
that truck it's in the rear passenger side wheel well area), let the gas run
low in the tank, then remove the gas cap to relieve pressure in the tank.

ooh!  sounds like you had a pollutign experience, scott!  <g>

For an engine to run you need three things: Fuel, compression and spark.
You need to figure out which of those things goes away when your
car stops running.  You can assume that compression is OK since first
it runs, then it doesn't then it runs (Cant be sure unless you pull a
plug and crank the engine with a compression tester, however.)  You can
check for spark with a timing light.  Checking for fuel on a car with
fuel injection is something I've never done. Perhaps a wet spark plug.
 
Either way, you say you have electrical problems.  That could cause
all kinds of stuff!  I'll bet your Sable has an electric fuel pump,
electronic fuel injection, and is controlled by a computer.  All
require a stable supply of electricity!  Get you electrical system
working properly!  Get an electrical wiring diagram for your car and
see how the things that stop working are related.  Take apart and 
inspect every wire and connector in the suspect harness.  Be sure
that the crimps from the wire to the contact are good.  You may even
have to resort to jumpering critical items, like the fuel pump, EMC,
etc. directly to the battery (through a fuse) to be sure that they
are getting reliable power.  It is going to be tough but it needs to
be done if you want that car to be reliable.  I sure wouldn't spend
$150 to $200 on an EMC for a car with an unreliable electrical system.
 
It could also be that a fuel line is getting hot and causing the fuel
in that line to vaporize.  You would have to wait a while for things
to cool down before the car would run again.  Make sure that all the
heat shilds are in place and that the fuel lines dont get too close to
the exhaust system or any other hot parts.

From Quentin Borthwick qborthwi It could be your mass air flow senserand or
your engine tenp swich that turns on your fan.

Wow.  Albaugh's Sable problems are exactly like the problems I am having
with my 87 Honda Accord, down to the last detail.  It's the same problem:
an intermittent revving and dipping of the tachometer with a corresponding
revving and dipping of the engine, then a stall, and then turning the
ignition key won't even turn the car over.  Also, the same bizarre
behavior in the electrical system.  When I bought the car, the headlights
were out.  When the shop went to replace them, they discovered that the
front-end electrical wiring was "rotted out" and needed to be replaced.
Since then I've had nothing but the same problem.  I've had a complete
tune-up, had both fuel filters changed, etc.  Nothing seems to work.  The
car isn't fuel-injected, which makes the problem even more frustrating.
I've taken the car to P.A.T. in Ann Arbor, and at the moment they're as
baffled as I am by the problem.

Sounds a bit like a transmission problem, but I wouldn't be an expert.

   accords have a rubber seal under the carburetor somewhere (might
be under the air cleaner housing) which can cause that intermittent
rev/dip problem if it's torn.  wendy-who's-not-a-grexer's accord has the
same problem, but i haven't gone looking for the seal yet so i don't
know exactly where it is, just the neighborhood to search.

When the engine stalls and won't turn over, can you push start it? (Or
is it an automatic?  Since is has a tach, I suspect it's a manual.)
 
Is this symptom predictable or does it happen whenever?  The car may not
be fuel injected, however, it still has a computer that controls fuel
mixture in the carb.
 
I still bet it's an electrical problem.  Something simple but very
difficult to isolate.  Most auto service people don't know that much
about electrical problems.  I bet you have "rotted out" wiring elsewhere.

Has anyone ever had a starter solenoid replaced?  Cost?

If it won't even turn over, there aren't many things that can be wrong.
The circuit between the battery, starter, & ignition switch has very few
components.  The starter solenoid is certainly possible, except it
wouldn't explain why the car stalls after being started (since the
solenoid isn't needed for the car to run).  I think the battery wiring
is more likely.  The ignition switch is also a possibility.  Regardless,
if you can get a wiring diagram for the car, and a voltmeter, you should
be in good shape to isolate the whatever it is that keeps the starter
from working, next time it happens.

(Honda automatics have tachs, or at least my parents' Honda does)

A tach does not dictate a manual transmission.  My Escort had a tach, and it
was extremely helpful despite the automatic transmission.  I wish I had it
on my current car.

Actually, that problem sounds faintly like the problem my Camry had (twice)
when it got wet.  I'd have all sorts of throttle pickup problems, and
eventually it refused to do anything.  Fortunately, it chose my driveway to
be the place to quit, but it was annoying.

OK, what use is a tach on a car with an automatic?  I don't even have a
tach on my manual shifter cars:  I can hear the engine.

Lots of things happen when you turn the key to run on a car!  Power is
supplied to the accessories, the engine computer wakes up, power is
supplied to the ignition system, to the fuel pump and whatever else
might need electricity to make the engine run.  When you turn the key to
start you connect power to the starter solinoid which is just a big switch
that connects battery positive to the starter.  If the solinoid doesn't
get juice, it won't close the big switch that gives the starter its juice.
Since you don't even hear a click (the sound of the starter solinoid
closing) the starter solinoid isn't getting any power or it is defective.
(I'll put my money on it not getting any juice since other electrical
things on the car are out of wack too.)

Lots of things.  Sometimes it helps to know how you're accelerating, and it
is still possible to rev the car in neutral.  You don't need to know when to
shift, in theory, but it is still helpful to know what the engine is doing.
If it is constantly overevving, it would be nice to see it so you can get the
transmission checked.

Of course, you can also hear that, so you don't really need a tach, but that
goes for a stick as well as an automatic.  If I didn't know what to listen
for, it would be useful information on both types of cars.

usually after a couple weeks of driving a manual transmission, i can shift
smoothly without clutching both up and down.  a tach is helpful, but not
absolutely required.

there are two methods I know of when driving a manual car... you can go by
the sound of the engine, or changing gears about every 10 to 15 mpr.  That
is what my father told me when he attempted to teach me to drive.  Needless
to say, I am horrid with an automatic too.  =P  

I've no idea what I'd do with a tachometer.  Every manual shift car I've
ever driven, including the volvo I drive daily, has not had one.  I
usually go by a combination of engine pitch & mph.

I don't even want to think of the wear other is putting on his
transmission when shifting down.

It's helpful for me, particularly when I'm listening to music or when my
transmission is bugging on what gear to use.  I listen to music a lot, and
my transmissions tend to be confused. What can I say? :)

Down shifting doesn't wear out the transmission as much as it does the
clutch.  I use to downshift a lot till I figure out that I needed to
replace the clutch every 70,000 miles and that a brake job is cheaper
than a clutch job.  I can also do the brake job myself in a lot less 
time.
 
If I need to know how many RPMs an engine is doing, I have one I can
clip on in my engine analyzer.  Good for setting curb idle to spec
and some carb and timing adjustments.  Too much running around when
its mounted on the dash.  I don't have any use for a tach when driving.
When I shift is dependent on how I'm driving.  If I'm accelerating
hard to merge with traffic, I may still be in 3rd when I'm doing 60
mph.  If I'm cruising, looking at the scenery, I can be shifting
to 4th at 25 mph.  Even when my clutch was going, I didn't need a tach
to tell me the engine was reving up without the car going proportionally
faster.  Same goes for a stomp-n-go tranny low on fluid or suffering
from other problems. (The tach in most production cars says: "Look, I'm
trying to look like a sports car")

Having a tachometer is at least as useful as having an oil pressure light:
You may never look at it until it signals something bad is afoot!  :-)

My wife's car, a l985 Nissan Sentra wagon, generally runs OK but recently
has been going into periods of stalling and the engine quitting when
idling, but then it often recovers and runs well. She had it into the
garage, and they diagnosed a bad "carburetor solenoid", which they
replaced.  They also cleaned the carburetor. Well, these did not solve the
problem, and the car is back in the shop. Any ideas? Things like water
in gas have been thought of, but I'm not sure how one determines that.

downshifting without clutching does not do any damage or cause excess wear
on the clutch as long as you match speeds well. 

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