For our study of poetry in English this year we have to read a collection of
a single poet's work, read some literary criticism concerning the poems, and 
write some "responses" of our own to it. I've chosen to read Allen Ginsberg's
_Howl and Other Poems_, having read the first and second parts of "Howl" in a
collection of favorite american poets.
"Howl" is truly one of my favorite poems. The first time I happened on it in
the collection, it just seized hold of me and I couldn't put the book down or
think about anything else until I'd finished reading it (or perhaps more 
accurately, until it had finished with me ;-) The poem is so *immediate* and
its language direct, whimsical, lyrical and shocking. Our textbook talks about
"poetry and antipoetry"--the two extremes, stereotypical greeting-card
prettiness and deliberately vile ugliness. That's I think one thing that makes
_Howl_ a great poem (for me, at least)-it achieves a perfect balance between
the two. It is a poem that is partially about the alienation of Ginsberg's
generation (parts I and II) but also a love poem (part III) to the poet's
dying friend/lover Carl Solomon (at least, that's what *I* thought it was
about, though I could be completely wrong). And it often describes ugly things
in a sublimely lyrical way, as in the following line (turns off cd, runs 
upstairs to fetch book): 
"who sat in boxes breathing in the darkness under the bridge, and rose up to
build harpsichords in their lofts"

"A Supermarket in California" is also a wonderful poem.

Anyway, that's what I think. Is there anyone else here who likes Allen Ginsberg
and the other Beat writers?

23 responses total.

        It's difficult to appreciate Ginsberg or Kerouac in written form;  at
least I have a tough time of it.  It has to be spoken.

I often find myself mentally "saying" the words of Howl or whispering it 
quietly when I read it to myself--I don't know if I do that with all other
poetry, and certainly not with all prose.
Kerouac wrote fiction rather than poems, didn't he? What is it like, generally
speaking?

Kerouac wrote mainly fiction with a a couple books of poetry such as "Mexico
City Blues," and I believe "San Francisco Blues."  His poetry in not as good as
his prose IMO.  The place to start with Kerouac I think is Dharma Bums which
describes some time he spent with Gary Snyder hiking in the mountains.  This
book will introduce you to some of the other beats such as Snyder, Ginsburg
etc, and think the writing is a little tighter than" on the Road."  "On the
Road," is the biggie and is a big wild sprawling description Kerouac's and Neal
Cassidy's mad dashes back and forth across the U.S. lookng for enlightenment,
drugs & girls.  It is probably the closest fiction to Howl and was written in
the same period when Kerouac and Ginsburg were still close friends.

Thanks for the reference, I'll look for it at the library tomorrow afternoon.
One of the poems in _Howl_ talks about Ginsberg sitting down near the railroad
yard with Kerouac, and there is also a reference to 'N.C.' in "Howl" itself.
Did Kerouac and Ginsberg cease to be good friends for some particular reason,
or did they just drift apart? The other Kerouac item in this cf.
(sorry, don't remember the number) talks about his being "unable to escape
his Catholic upbringing."

Somebody else in my English class is reading "Howl" (presumably an excerpt) 
for their presentation for the class, so I'm going to do "Supermarket in 
California" instead.

I'd also sorta like to get the Kronos Quartet's CD, "Howl, U.S.A." which 
features a musical setting of the poem as read by Ginsberg himself.

BPL's copy of _Dharma Bums_ was checked out, as were more or less all of its
other Kerouac books (including 6 or 7 copies of _On the Road_). I think I'll
reserve it.

Please, someone else enter something!!!

I'm not actually a big beat poetry fan at the moment.  A few years back I
thought that Ginsberg was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the more
poetry I've read since then the less I've liked him - but the more I've
realized how original and shocking some of his stuff must have been.  

I like Ginsburg, Ferlinghetti, di Prima and the rest 
of them mainly for nostalgic reasons.  I don't have 
any illusions about the quality of their poetry, but
they will always have a place in my heart.

re #4 They drifited apart because Kerouad became a bitter drunken
morose Catholic who lived with his mom, while Ginsburg became
an outspoken advocate for gay rights and proto hippy in the
early 60s.  Yes the beat writing is of uneven quality, but when
they are on they wtie some the best lines in the business, while
the whole work may be weak IMO.  See also William Burroughs "Naked
Lunch" (warning not for the easily disturbed).
Makes Howl look like a puritan sermon.

        Kesey's still alive and well, though, depsite some of the bitterer
novels of the period.  I saw a special on discovery with him playing as a
clown with a bunch of children - there's a lesson to be learned here.

I was surprised to earn that Beat poet Hugh
Romney metamorphosed into Wavy Gravy, the
Woodstock guy.

How long did you have to work to earn that?
8-{)]

re 8, yes, I was going to say something along those lines (about beat poetry
being of uneven quality, although sometimes really good). "America" from the
"Howl" book, for instance, strikes me more as an attempt to be shocking and
piss people off than as a well-written poem, as does "Footnote to Howl." But
I still love "Howl" itself.

What I don't like about it is just that attitude
of trying to piss people off.  Or, more precisely,
since none of the Middle Americans who would be 
pissed off by it would be likely ever to read it,
or even know it existed, the bohemian-clubby message
that "Boy, would this ever piss off Mr & Mrs Middle
America if anyone except us bohemians ever read it."
Phony amusement, forced mirth, all arising from a
fundamental hostility toward Middle America, which
itself arises from a sense of rejection and exclusion.
Garden variety sour grapes, in other words.  I 
recognized this even when I first read it as a 
teenager, and consequently could never take it all 
that seriously.  But looking back on it now, I feel a 
sense of nostalgia for the loss of the collective
innocence that made it possible for anyone to read
Howl with a straight face.

re #13  Hmmm some people I think have pretty legitimate problems with the
status quo, such as poor people minorities, etc.  It isn't all just
sour grapes I think there is some legitimate anger there.  Many of the
beat writers were in fact shunned because of their sexuality, or
because they were women or black, or hung out with jazz muscians, etc.
They were pissed on first before they got pissed off.

The thing that grated on my nerves in bad beat writting is the use of canned
hip phrases like "hep cat," "threads," "wheels," etc.

"They were pissed on before they got pissed off"
is good.  In a way, that's what I was saying.

Hep cats, threads, wheels -- that stuff ages fast,
I agree, but if you can place yourself in the 
mindset of a 1950s reader it's not so stale sounding.
Reading dated literature requires mind-games,
sometimes.  It's been called "suspension of disbelef,"
but I think it has to go even further than that.

That's what I like about some of it, actually.  You can get an interesting
sense of a time period by looking at what was considered new or interesting
then.

re13: but md, I don't think one can argue that *all* Beat writing comes out
of that attitude; in fact, I think "America" is the only poem in the _Howl_
collection that I dislike because it is designed to shock people. My favorite
among the shorter poems of the book is "A Supermarket in California," a dreamy
account of Ginsberg and Walt Whitman wandering through the aisles of a
supermarket at night. It *does* comment on Ginsberg's view of Middle America,
in the second-to-last line ("Will we walk dreaming of the lost America of love,
past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage?" -- quote from
memory, it may be a bit inaccurate), but in a much gentler way than "America."
The overall tone is peaceful and wistful, quite different from the all-out
assault of "America."

Now that I've had time to think about it, I think what I truly dislike about
"America" is that there's no subtlety in the way it presents its message;
it's whole purpose is to be a political call to action, and it wastes no time
on anything else. "A Supermarket in California," on the other hand, is to at
least as large a degree a lovely tribute to Ginsberg's idol Whitman as it is
a political statement; I think this makes it not only a much more beautiful
poem but a much more enduring one.

I am reading _On the Road_, because it was on the shelves at the library and
_Dharma Bums_ wasn't. I have finished the first part and already love it. 

I too have read quite a few of Ginsberg's poems...I liked Howl, America etc.
for their originality...but there are many others which could have been muvh
better without the explicit homosexual elements...those are the poems one can
read and like but may not like to pescribe to others. The footnote to Howl
itself is a good poem...but I dont feel I would recommend it to others to
read.

        Ginsberg was an explicit homosexual, though. :)

Fine . Nothing is wrng in being an explicit homosexual. But points can be put
in even without being so explicit. Maybe in the sixties or even earlier
(fifties), it was necessary to be blunt and explicit to make one's voice heard
across.

        So it's OK as long as they're not kissing or holding each other in
public, right?

<ducks and watches>

I was talking about writing....In didnt mean to talk about their personal
lives.

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