Yesterday, The Detroit Free Press ran an article on spanking, highlighting
data from a study published this week in the journal of the American
Academy of Pediatrics.  I found some of the statistics fascinating.

The overview is that most mothers spank because they believe it is the 
right thing to do.  204 mothers with children younger than 4, from 
2 New York sites were included in the study.  Father's attitudes
and practices regarding corporal punishment were not included.

Some of the findings:

     * 74% of mothers interviewed said they believe it is appropriate
       to spank children ages 1 to 3.

     * 42% said they had spanked their child in the past week; 11%
       spanked more than once a day.

     * 19% said it is OK to spank a child less than 1 year old.

     * 43% said it is appropriate to spank somewhere besides the buttocks.

     * 19% said spanking with something other than a hand is all right.

     * 8% said it is OK to spank so hard that it leaves a mark.

I guess I'm not surprised by the statistics even though I find the
practice shocking.  But hitting an infant?  

How do you feel about this?  Should there be laws protecting children
from such parenting techniques?  

183 responses total.

I suppose it depends on how you define spanking.
Apparently you assume most people equate it to the physical equivilent
of a beating.  I sure didn't.  I was spanked often when I was a child
and played it up in tears.  Truth was I got hit SO lightly I'd
laugh about it later.  The question this survey fails to address
is exactly how those people define spanking.
I know a lot of people that consider a pat on the rear a spanking for a
one year old.  
I think there should be (and there ARE aren't there?) laws against
child abuse.  The question of when spanking is abuse and when spanking
is disipline is probably best defined by definitions of child
abuse.
Personally I think there are much better ways of disiplining children.

I'd prefer to try education, first, though in some instances it amounts
to changing cultural attitudes. I have seen parents that smack their
kids around way past age 3, thinking there is no other way to "control"
them. Of course, all parents *move* their kids around (pick them up
and stick them in the playpen...), which is also corporal. I not only
don't like the idea of a law (beyond existing abuse laws), but I don't
think it can be defined narrowly enough.

Our daughter, age 12, saw the headline, and we got into a discussion
of spanking. We never spanked her, except playfully, and she has happy
memories of some of that (much to my surprise). But then, she was not
one to make a lot of trouble. I'm not sure what I would have done with
a child that liked to engage in destructive testing.

Just to play the devil's advocate for a moment and put this in a larger
perspective: Human parents have used spanking as a reward/punishment form
of cultural education for hundreds(more likely, thousands) of years. As a
race, we seem to be getting along. (although, one could argue that's
the reason we are such an agressive species. But that would be confusing
cause and effect without further evidence.)

Probably cyclical...

I think it's very hard to generalize here.  For some kids, a spanking
does a lot of good.  I was spanked from time to time, and I turned out
OK.  For others, however, spanking just doesn't work.  No matter how
hard you spank kids like this, they will do whatever they plan on
doing.

I've also observed situations where kids didn't spank the kids, and
they were hellions.  These kids figured out that they could get away
with just about anything and they just went wild.

I think you just have to deal with each kid in an individual way.  I
know this is tough, but no one said parenting was easy.

I think whether a spanking is okay or not depends on whether or not
it is done in anger - you can spank a child and get your point
across if you are in total control of yourself.  If not - don't spank!

Substituting spanking for more intelligent forms of discipline, like 
explaining why a behavior was wrong and thinking of a better way to
get the child to remember the principle behind the event, is asking
for more behavioral problems and potentially a host of emotional 
problems in general in the child's future.  On the other hand, it
can "get the child's attention" sometimes when that is an immediate
need.  
I agree with #5, that the personality and development stage of the
child is most important in the decision of how to discipline, and 
with #2, that it is highly improbable that a law could adequately
handle this issue.  Goddess knows, the child abuse laws are hard
enough to apply correctly as it is.  I knew a woman whose daughter
of 3 or so suffered bowel retention, especially on trips.  The little
girl got so bound up from not defecating that, on a trip to Disneyworld,
she bled after a bowel movement.  When her mother took her a hospital
to have her checked out they kept her away from her mother overnight,
suspecting abuse, and severely traumatized both mother and daughter.
Laws on spanking would have great potential for similar problems.

Some spanking seems unavoidable.  I've seen parents who reach out
and hit their kids for playing with wall outlets or for getting too
close to something dangerous.  In extreme situations, I don't think
that physical control of some sort or another can be avoided.  The
"cruel and unusual" parents to me are the ones who say "go in your
room and wait for me."  Then they show up five minutes later with a
belt or a switch.  That kind of punishment is never good, as far as
I'm concerned.  Letting the legal system step into parent-child 
relations seems equally bizarre to me, but without it I don't see
any way of stopping premeditated child abuse.

I never used spanking as a resource for punishment.  I have used when they
were between the ages of 2and 3 if they were currently engaged in a
particular henious practice. (Eg., the older boy repeatedly hitting 
his brother in the face.)  Furthermore, the child had to ignore my
verbal command.  I guess that both my kids might have been spanked 
twice in their lives.

Parents who resort to spanking  infants and those who spank
more than once a week are out of control.  Should they continue,
the  children may respond to nothing less than corporeal punishment.
My wifes's nephews had been thus, but through the kind efforts of
their teachers, cvilization gains a foothold where beatings did
almost nothing.

Only once did I resort to giving my son a spanking.  It was done calmly,
we spoke about why first, and it was done because he had been disobedient
in a way that could have hurt him quite badly. That was enough for me. 
Whenever I see a child being struck it bothers me a whole lot.  I feel it
relects either a parent lacking parenting skills or a parent out of
control.  Spanking is an act of humilitation.  Why would anyone want to
use painful control and humiliation techniques in a positive, loving
relationship? 


A few years ago this was printed in Community High School's
"Communicator":

  A child hits a child,
     and we call it agression.
  A child hits an adult,
     and we call it hostility.
  An adult hits and adult, 
     and we call it assault/battery.
  An adult hits a child,
     and we call it discipline.

                      -Haim Ginott

Like the study said, most people spank because they think it's the
right think to do.  Part of the loving relationship includes doing what you
think is best even if you don't like doing it.  (I think it's often
misguided, but I think that's generally the answer for *why* parents do
it).
 
I think spanking has two effects: humiliation and physical pain. Some
parents optimize for one or the other.  Ultra-light spanks can still have a
profound "shaming" effect.  While I'm not a fan of spanking, I think
causing shame in some way is sometimes appropriate.

If a kid is trying to stick their finger in an outlet, or any other urgent
situation that some people have said was the onlytime when spanking was
justafiable, I don't see how spanking will help more than pulling the
child away.  As for the discipline, sending me to my room always seemed to
work for my parents, along with yelling at me occasionally.

Would you like to borrow a 14 year old for a few weeks, scg?  Not all
kids come to "attention" merely due to a parent's frown or even a
yelled warning.  Personally, getting sent to my room was great, as it
was a fun place for me, and I felt safe there.  Kids vary in their
attentiveness and in their response to external stimuli.  I think it's
very difficult to make a blanket condemnation or approval of spanking.

Who's there?

Degree is the distinguishing  characteristic here - spanking
that takes 25 minutes and results in breaks in the skin surface
is rather different from a quick, light smack on the hand that
+was+ in the process of reaching for that last fudge brownie.
  
Without the ability to distinguish/discriminate and make a
value judgement, there is not much hope.
  
I've "spanked" kids and will continue to do so, with judgement.

I just don't think making laws that punish child abusers is going to 
stop or minimize child abuse any more than stiffer drug laws are going
to stop drug abusers.  There are some things that people do from a non-
intellectual side of their brain that doesn't, by definition, think.  That's
why deterrents fail miserably in some areas, IMHO.  (the effectiveness of
deterrents in general is a good topic for discussion)  I believe our only
recourse against such behaviors is to first make major improvements in our
understanding of human nature (1/10th of the cost of the drug war would
provide significant gains here, I think).

This item has been linked from agora 58 to the "Small Fry" conference,
item 61.  It seemed appropriate.

There's spanking and there's spanking.  As part of a graded response system
to some "wrong" on the child's part, it can be very effective.  You don't
have to spank in a way which will actually harm (physically) the child.
It's nice to try to conceptualize the wrong, and explain it rationally to
the child, but those are adult actions and not always comprehensible to a
kid.  I would think a smack could not be misunderstood
$0.02  <-- my two cents

Who ever thinks you can reason with small children, you have more precocious
children than I have (I have 6 ranging from 11 to 20).  I have been astounded
at my inability to reason with small children and teens.  Haven't
any of you folks aske, "Why did you do that?" and gotten in return an
"I don't know." or nothing at all.  Early on I learned "Why..." is an
inappropriate question.  Little children and Teens don't really know.

That is why spanking for little children is very useful.  A bit of pain 
is universally know to be a deterant.  And with a spanking, there is a sense
that the price has been paid and life can immidiately go on in a more 
constructive vain.  Children after a certain age do understand when a parent
says you did such and such for this s reason it is dangerous or very
inappropriate for people to live together peacefully, therefore you get a swat.
 Afterward a hug and a kiss, don't do it again, and off on life.

The problem with dealing with teens is that often they have screwed up
logic which doesn't respond to adult logic.  Spanking doesn't work at all.
Unfortunately a parent has to devise a stratagy and carry it though, which
is lots of work requiring the remembering of the offence over longer periods
of time.  I long for the times of a simple swat which had a simple meaning
which could be followed with a happy normal life.


I have discussed this discussion with my kids and they tell me there are
an abundance of kids at school who are full of back talk and boldness
feeling there isn't a price to pay for violent, disruptive, rude behavior.
The principle of a price to pay is evidently learned very early.  Sure,
teens want to test the limits of the payment which requires parents to 
reenforce their commitment to consequences and answering their challenges.
There is a crisis out there of parents who reason too much and ones who 
beat their children to do physical damage (which laws apply to now).  I work
with kids every day from 4th grade to high school.  I am extremely proud
of my kids and others in our community are likewise proud and appreciative.
I think spanking can have extremely good results after years of experience.
I was a Spock baby and child (no spanking) and I didn'tlike the outcome, so
with my kids I decided to see to it that they grew up more responsible than
I did.

"constructive vain"...?  ;)

re #5:  You observed situations where kids were allowed, by their parents,
        to run wild, and you think that physical punishments will cure that?

re #11: Most people *say* they think it is the right thing to do.  But
        a high percentage of "parenting skills class" graduates, taught
        effective non-violent means of discipline, revert to spanking
        because it is easier and more satisfying.

re #15: Given that you aren't a parent, you may well spank with judgment.

re #19: You have six kids and you still believe the "I don't know"?

By spanking a child, we say to them "I will strike you if I do not
undertand or agree with your behavior," and then expect that they
would never use violence to resolve conflicts in adult life.

yes, and as they gain reasoning and comprehension skill, the 
spank is less and less appropriate.

A child does something very wrong and you have to ask why he or
she did it?  The last time you did something wrong and your wife
or your boss asked you why you did it do you give a straight answer?
Did you deserve to get punched because of your answer?

First keep in mind the study ONLY involved 204 mothers, in *ONLY* two sites,
in the same city.  Many of these families were from "inner-city" homes; which
have always been more prone to corporal punishment.  Also, as mentioned, no
criteria was used for defining a basic spanking.  When many hear of spanking
to a non-butt location, horror thoughts of faces and battered limbs come
into play.  Remember, it includes a smack on the back of the hand.  I believe
this study is all but worthless, and is only known because the media thought
it would sell.

As far as spanking, I am more inclined to use it on a younger child. (No not
an infant)  Simply because their reasoning isn't as developed.  I believe it
is a discipline tool, and like any tool it is only appropriate at certain
times.  I don't believe in using it as punishment, only as behavior 
modification. (ie. Only in the instant needed, not later. )  I also think
it should quickly (but not immediately) be followed with a "hug session"
and a talk if the child is old enough.

Spanking is one possible type of discipline.  I don't believe you can hang
any good or bad results on its use or omission.  Children can be raised
quite well with it or without it; and likewise, they can be "hellions".

RE

Something else about spanking I'd like to mention.  Advocates say
it's just a tap and doesn't really hurt.  But next time you give your
child a whack consider the body's reaction.  Would the child lose
balance if you didn't hold him or her up?  Do the feet even get swept
off the floor?  If you hit an adult with the same force would the
adult take it as an unfriendly gesture?  Sometimes I think we forget
how big we are and how small they.  Consider how it would feel if
someone who outweighted you many, many times came at you and struck
you across most of your backside with enough force to cause you to 
lose your balance.  Would you consider that a tap?

Also, if spanking works then why does it have to be done over, and
over, and over again?  From my experience, the children I know
why have the worst behavioral problems are those who come from homes
where spanking is considered a reasonable way to teach a lesson.
I find it interesting that a parent would say, "But I have to hit
him otherwise he'll never learn", and then continue to hit him over
and over and over until the child grows too big to hit safely.

In my book spanking has everything to do with the parent and very
little to do with the child.

I am reminded of something I saw several years ago.  There was baby with
an adult who I assume was the father.  As most babies do from time to
time, this baby was crying.  Rather than comforting the baby, the father
kept on yelling "stop crying or I'll spank you more," and spanking him. 
Is it any wonder this parent didn't get the desired result?

Spanking is not the only thing happening in families whick use spanking
as a means of punishment or discipline.  I don't believe children who
are spanked will use violence as a means to solve problems because of
the spanking.  Many parents openly advocate violence as a means of self
defense but don't follow up with instruction of what constitutes a threat
to the child's safty.  Others advocate violence as a reply to "disrespect."

I have only one shot at this job of parenting and I weigh the outcome of
what I do.  I hope all of you who spank or don't spank, will be ready to
be honest about the kind of job you have or haven't done when your children
are on their own.  Too many times I have heard, "I was a good parent, I
did the best I could." from parents with rotten children.  Or I have heard
parents unjustifiably defend their rotten kids.

I hope you who have children will be as proud of your kids as I am of mine.
Not because I make that judgement but because of the judgements others have 
made concerning my children.  I don't understand wholely what I have done
or haven't done right.  At times I feel we are quite screwed up as a family
but I know I am not shedding the responsibility of the tough job that is
mine to anyone else.  

Everybody on here in favor of spanking or causing pain for deterent...
How would you feel if everytime you screwed up at work your boss punched
you in the face...I mean after all, pain deters you from doing it
again, right?!?

a punch in the face and a spank are not the same.

No, a spank and a punch in the face are quite different..
A punch in the face is merely physical pain, AND (generally) between two
people of approximate equal physical development such that, if desired, the
'victim' can retaliate in kind..
A spanking however, can be not only painful physical, but emotional disturbing
also, humiliating the child, and the child has no way to protect itself 
against it.  

There are non-violent ways of teaching a child that his or her actions
have a consequence.  No dessert's a good one.

I would like to continue this dixcussion in 10 years, after the results
are in from our collective paarenting skills.  Spanking doesn't hunmiliate
like verbal humiliation.  We should outlaw verbal abuse.  Does that mean
we should outlaw communication?  Parenting is more than spanking or not 
spanking.  A parent who loves their child can use spanking effectively at
times.  Corporal punishment has been around a long time and it's use
has not turned loads of people bad.  Spanking doesn't imply bad parenting.
Spanking doesn't imply children will grow up emotionally impared.

This response has been erased.

Excuse me, a number of people responding are only talking about their own
children, or children they know... what about you, were any of you spanked
as a child?  I was, and I haven't turned out lousy, I don't agree with 
repeated spanks, or spanks that leave marks... Reasoning only works when
the child will sit still long enough to pay attention...
Like I said, were you as children spanked?  Do you think it made you a 'bad'
person?

I was spanked once. I got into lying, until the day I lied about damaging
some gizmo my father needed - even though I was the only possible culprit.
I was spanked until I admitted the truth. For reasons I cannot explain, 
I *stopped* lying, as a result of that very traumatic event. It definitely
made me a better person. As an adult I also became an almost-never
spanker (you'd have to ask my children for more accurate statistics).

There are some cases where it does not make sense to punish at all, as in
the case popcorn described.  If a child is "hungry and cranky," I would
imagine the most effective way to deal with him would be to feed him.

I was spanked as a child by my father, who loved me I'm sure, but
would get very angry without any type of a build-up and then strike
us very hard with either his hand or a belt.  I don't think it was
a good way to teach right and wrong.  I do think it left lasting
hurts and influenced my adult life in ways I will probably never
fully understand.  I don't hate him - he did what he thought was 
right.  But he was wrong.  Very wrong. 

Personally, i waas spanked occasionally when i was young, but it was only 
for major offenses, and not often at all, sure, i cried and sulked after, 
but only because my pride was hurt.  nd i'm not emotionally damaged, or
anything like that.  I consider it a just punishment in certaincircumstances
but not to the point where it becomes abusive...

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