Well, I said I would do it, didn't I?  8^)  

I really think that people don't like the current login screen because they
feel that it is inaccurate, and that it connotes something we con't want to
prescribe.  

I think we can change it to more accurately reflect how the people here feel
about how Co-op should run.  

In this item, I'm going to start with my original text, and then work upwards
to what is in the login screen now.  I sincerely hope that instead of just
critisizing, people will come up with alternatives to the present text, and
perhaps reasons why their word choices are better than the preceding ones.

Personally, I'm not against having a short message in the login screen and
a longer one in the bulletin, as long as the message in the login screen is
not just a bunch of fluff like a figlet or a bunches of spaces and asterisks.

If we all remain constructive, I'm sure that we'll have a great Co-op login
really soon!

280 responses total.

This is what I originally proposed to TS:

> Hello, you have reached the Co-op conference.  This is where everyone
> gathers to plan the future of Grex.
>  
> Decisions here are made by a rough consensus of all participants.  You
> don't have to be on the board for your voice to count, and you don't have
> to be a member.  Your logical argument determines what Grex will look like
> tomorrow and all the tomorrows after that.
>  
> Are you ready?

It was actually shorter than the then current Co-op login screen, although
I hadn't thought of putting it there.  

I liked it because it made people feel at home here.  It emphasized what
the person says, rather than who the person is.  I've heard so many times
now about people talking about a "us" versus "them" kind of thinking.  

I also really believe that Grex operates by striving for consensus.  In
fact, that's why there's so much gridlock, usually.  (That, and the drift
that always seems to get introduced into a good item . . . )  If you think
about it, the board tends not to do anything that will upset even just a
few users.  The topic just gets debated on and on and on, such that either
a consensus develops, or nothing gets changed.  

This was TS's counter offer:

> Hello, you have reached the Co-op conference.  This is the place where
> people gather to discuss Grex's current state of affairs and to plan its
> future.
>  
> The board and staff hang out here to see to see which way the wind is
> blowing, or to create a blowing wind of their own.  You, too, may huff
> and puff with the rest of us with absolute disregard to your "status"
> but with full regard for your logic, experience, and consideration.
>  
> Decisions here are made mainly by a rough consensus of all participants.
> You don't have to be on the board for your voice to count, and you don't
> have to be a member.  Your responses count because you enter them.  That's
> all it takes.  Your logical argument determines what Grex will look like
> tomorrow and all the tomorrows after that.
>  
> Are you ready?

At 16 lines, it was a bit more than the current login screen, but what's 6
lines between friends?  

He added the present tense to my first paragraph, although it can probably
be argued that only the future matters, especially in a conferenced aliased
as "planning."

I think he added the second paragraph to somewhat temper my idealism,
because no binding decisions are really made in Co-op, although I believe
the board always has followed the decisions made in Co-op.  

Again, I think TS's third paragraph was intended to temper my idealism by
making the board's importance a little more obvious.  

Ooh!  I take that back!  That was my counter offer to TS's counter offer. 
As you can see, I whipped it up when it was way past my bed time, given all
the typos and all.  (I had to get spare time from something, and I couldn't
cut class or skip on work.  Sleep's all that's left.)  

Anyway, I've managed to *lose* the version that TS sent me.  I have dozens
of messages regarding Co-op in my INBOX, but not the one I want.  Figures,
eh?  The connotations of my second version and his first are really the same,
though, so the comments in my previous response still apply, I think.  

And this was the final version that TS put in after we talked about it in
chat: 

> Welcome to the Co-op Conference <Eighth Edition - Fair Witnesses: tsty &
nephi> >   >    You have reached the Co-op conference, good for you. This is
the >    conference  where  people gather to discuss Grex's current state >   
of affairs and affairs of the future. >   >    The board and staff hang out
here to see which way  the  wind is >    blowing, and/or to create/rebut a
blowing wind of their own. You >    too, may huff and puff with the rest of us
with  absolute disre- >    gard to  your  "status" but with full regard for
your logic, ex- >    perience, and consideration. >   >    Decisions are made
by a rough consensus of all participants. You >    don't have to be board or
staff.  You don't have to be a member. >    Your response counts  because you
respond.  That's all it takes. >    Your logical arguments determine how Grex
looks and operates. >   >    Are you ready?

Well, I guess I can let you guys pick at it.  Although I don't have any
specific criticisms to offer, I do generally feel uncomfortable about it.  
I'm not entirely sure I like the wind analogy, I guess, but it does
seem to very efficiently say (as analogies tend to) what needs to be
said -- that the power's really with the board, who tend to do what the
members of Co-op want them to do.  

I'm not feeling very creative right now, or I'd offer up yet another
version for consideration.  I'll do that if I get any ideas.  I hope that
someone here more skillful with words than I will post a new, improved
version by the time I get back.  

This response has been erased.

Geez nephi, 50-some lines of text on this issue spread out over 5
responses, all in reaction to a little bit of criticism? You are
way overboard here and single-handedly starting to make this
conference look like the m-net policy conf on a bad day. Lighten
up and get a grip.

I personally don't mind the login screen the way it is.  People are getting
*way* to upset over this.

   I think some large part of the reaction to this is due to Grex's
extreme slowness, and how "another thing" that people have to wade
through is seen as something that isn't good.  Certainly I've experienced
the ability to read a book while trying to read a conference over
the net, and it does get boring after a time.

   There is also the question of whether or not the information should
be given so often, or not.  I often wonder about that with the Grex
motd files that everyone is forced to see--are we hurting oursevles by
having so much information there?

   I'd probably prefer to see the intro message as a bulletin myself,
such that it doesn't pop up at me every time I join coop.  If there
is concern with people forgetting it, something in it could be changed
every two weeks or so, thus giving people the oppurtunity to see it
all over again.  Obvioulsy if that is done often you might have a riot
on your hands.

I'm not sure that anybody's interpretation of how Grex works belongs
in a place as official-looking as the coop login screen.

Legally, Grex is governed by the board, which is elected by the members.
The board quite definately can make decisions without first seeking a
consensus among the users.  This statement can be read as the users as
a promise by the board that they will always work in that manner, when
in fact it is just the opinion of two non-board members on how they would
like to see Grex work.  I'm not a board member either.  I don't know if
the board wants to promise that this is the mode they will always work in.
I'd their shoes, I'd prefer not to.

Mostly though, I don't see the point of flashing this at people on every
login.  They aren't going to read it more than once (if that).  I read
the Agora banner most every time it comes up.  Repeatedly flashing blocks
of text on people's screens accomplishes nothing and annoys the pig.

I agree.

I don't.

grex will speed up, the board and staff have promised that. I believe them.

Right, Grex will speed up.  Still, do we really have to wade through that
whole thing every time we come into this conference?  I don't know about you,
but I find reading the same thing over and over and over and over and over
again to be extremly boring.

Sort of like this item.....

8-{)]

Since you *know* want's coming ... yo may carefully ignore it - cheerfully,
even. That's alright. I guess with all the hub-bub from the "regulars"
I would ask for some consideration from them in view of the importnace
forthe few, the proud, the newuser(s).
  
nephi andi *have* received some thoughtful email (imo) from some
quarters with thoughtful suggestions instead of open flames. Those
thoughts are being taken into careful consideration. 

TS, Nephi:

One of the things that struck me upon first seeing the login screen was
the use of successive slashes in the second paragraph. With all due respect,
it looks garish.

Upon a more recent look, I must ask, what is the second paragraph
trying to convey, and, further, is it necessary? Yes, I read TS's
explanation (and understood it, no offense ;) ), but don't the
first and third paragraphs by themselves state who you might find
in the conference, namely "people gather[ed] to discuss Grex"?

You could probably do without the second paragraph entirely. Just think:
it'll bring the size of the login to 12 lines, just like Agora! 8^)

BTW, I usually have to hit the space bar to get past the kittens in
Agora too, but I'm usually exiting from a conference that I FW, so I
guess that if it ever annoys me, I'll just trim a logout somewhere. 8^)

Not so much as a response to this issue but something I've 
wondered before - would it be a huge job to make available
an option whereby someone could turn off their viewing of
the MOTD and or login/logout messages?

This response has been erased.

(Fall Agora, must be, if there are kittens)

   Yes, for csh/tcsh people .hushlogin works.  I don't know about
the other shells.

Yep, .hushlogin works just dandy.  Thanks for the info.  Now,
is there any such way to have the conference logins not
displayed?  If not, is this an easy thing to program?

The Lions are back? Whew, I hope this is true. Launch codes were about to be
transmitted! Stand down!

Re 23, Yes, there's an easy solution.  Ask the fw's to move the contents of
login to bull.

This response has been erased.

nephi and I hvae received (and would liek to receive more, i guess) ideas
about keeping/altering/eliminating the login screen. 
  
At this point, i guess we are in "sponge" mode. 
  
for another point, anyone who has a clue as to me knows that i 
don't "play to the crowd" simply because a crowd has gathered. nephi
is learning that.
  
In thelogin, the metaphors might survive an alteration; we could always
elinmininate the results of    nroff   and make thelines longer
but fewer.
  
however, strictly for informational content, i think we did a darn
good job. And i will say again, for this conference; you could grow
from the login, sted the reverse.

Re 25: so it's a matter of writing a pager.  In the case of one constant
login screen which one finds objectionable, something like an awk program
shouldn't be too hard to manage.

   Except that the different conferences have different login/logout
banners.  I don't see a foolproof solution to getting around an
obnoxious banner.

   How long are you going to be in "sponge" mode, TS and Nephi?

   How many people have sent you supporting mail on this?  I ask,
because I see a distinct downturn in activity here over the last
several days, and I am afraid that there are people who are unhappy
enough with things that they've elected to simply not show up and
respond.

   That bothers me, a lot.

There's a thought.

   Ahem.

   How long are you going to be in "sponge" mode, TS and Nephi?

I've been out of coop for awhile because of life/illness/work/etc.
My $.02 on this issue: First off, I entirely agree with remmers that
waayyy too much time/text/resources/angst have been wasted on this issue.

Second, TS, in response #16 you stated:
  " nephi andi *have* received some thoughtful email (imo) from some
   quarters with thoughtful suggestions instead of open flames. Those
   thoughts are being taken into careful consideration."

The implications are that things said in this conference are just simply
"open flames" and they are *not* "being taken into careful consideration."

I agree with others opinion here. I think you and nephi have an over-inflated
idea of what the job of FW for coop should be. Your jobs should be as
janitors, not policy setters. As near as I can tell, most everyone has
said "take the message out of the login". Yet you havn't. Have you decided
that you "know what is best for us?" That's kind of surprising to hear
from you. You are always making big speechs about how evil "Big guvmint:
is, and yet you are sounding like "big government" in your handling of this.

Then, I suppose, there is a "standard" for login screens. Where do we find
that so, in the future, those affected can comply? 

Why did we bother assigning anyone as fw if they are not supposed to do
anything?  Probably would have been clearer to assign cfadm as fw.

re #35: (it gives Grex that warm, fuzzy feeling of a human touch.)

This response has been erased.

Arnold, here is the standard for login screens:

                                COOP

                        We discuss Grex here

                          fw:  (whatshisnames)

Re #33: I'm surprised that you would condemn the whole of Grex
("waayyy too much time/text/resources/angst have been wasted").

Rane, I think you misunderstand, I wasn't condeming anybody. Like the
proverbial molehill into a mountain, I think this thing is trivial and
shouldn;t have gone on to the extent that it has.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss