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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 174 responses total. |
ric
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response 94 of 174:
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Nov 13 01:37 UTC 2000 |
BSA, NAMBLA, it's all the same..
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rcurl
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response 95 of 174:
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Nov 13 02:17 UTC 2000 |
Let any organization sets its own standards for participation, but
don't allow public support for those that discriminate (given a national
definition of what constitutes discrimination). Anti-discrimination has
been an evolutionary process. Inevitably some people and organizations
will get left behind because they cannot or will not evolve. But new
people and organizations arise all the time, and will accomodate to
the advance of antidiscrimination. The girl scouts don't discriminate
on the basis of sexual orientation - perhaps they should start a male
counterpart?
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gelinas
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response 96 of 174:
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Nov 13 03:34 UTC 2000 |
What do you mean by "public support," Rane?
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brighn
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response 97 of 174:
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Nov 13 04:23 UTC 2000 |
The only sort of support that the government has any say about is government
support. that's usually what's meant by "public support," and I assume that's
what Rane meant, too.
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gelinas
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response 98 of 174:
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Nov 13 04:26 UTC 2000 |
Me, too, but before I agrue, I want to make sure I understand what I'm arguing
about. ;)
I can think of some things that look "public" but aren't.
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rcurl
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response 99 of 174:
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Nov 13 06:31 UTC 2000 |
Public support comes from governments, whose resources come from the public
via taxation. Boy Scouts (and Red Cross) are private organizations, which
have gotten a lot of public support in the past because they serve public
purposes without violating laws. The Boy Scouts have a religious element,
but have not applied it to their public services, as far as I know (they
accept employees and children of any religion, race,..etc..but now only
up to some sexual persuasions. The Red Cross has no limits on any non-criminal
beliefs and orientations (even though their symbol derived from a religion).
They may be changing that, by the way, because the cross carries a false
message when they work with, say, Muslim countries, where their counterpart
is the Red Crescent. Globalism is coming to the Red ???????.
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gelinas
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response 100 of 174:
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Nov 13 21:05 UTC 2000 |
OK; so you are only suggesting that they lose their tax-exempt status. I may
disagree, but I can't argue against it. (And I'm not sure that I disagree. :)
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mary
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response 101 of 174:
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Nov 14 00:20 UTC 2000 |
They should no longer be allowed to meet in any public school
building or circulate membership information on school
grounds. Not unless the same space could also be rented
to other organizations with agendas which discriminate,
like the KKK.
I wonder if United Way has lost any general donations because
one of the recipients of their funding is BSA. I hope so.
Would the adopted children of two gay parents still be welcome
in the BSA?
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gelinas
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response 102 of 174:
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Nov 14 00:48 UTC 2000 |
Last I heard, yes, they would, Mary. No reason to bar them.
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albaugh
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response 103 of 174:
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Nov 14 04:15 UTC 2000 |
Bullshit, Mary. All groups that do not conduct illegal activity are
eligible to hold meetings on school premises, which are public
buildings. That includes church groups, some of which may hold views
you don't happen to agree with, which you may - gasp - consider
discrimintory. The Boy Scouts do not tell you what to think, and you
have no right to tell the BSA what to think. Next, I suppose, you'll
want to ban Catholic groups from using school buildings, because
Catholics do not consider women proper persons to be priests, therefore
they're discriminatory.
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nephi
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response 104 of 174:
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Nov 14 05:06 UTC 2000 |
Escalation and retaliation appear to have failed for thousands of years
in the middle east and elsewhere. Is there reason to think that
escalation will cause the BSA to change their position here? Might they
become further entrenched in the position they are now defending?
Is there another method that can be pursued to help the BSA agree with
us, or at least better have more understanding for our point of view?
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gelinas
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response 105 of 174:
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Nov 14 05:10 UTC 2000 |
Don't kid yourself; the BSA leadership _understands_ your point of view,
they just don't *agree* with it. More understanding isn't going to help.
But yes, you are more likely to win them over with sweet persuasion than
with opposition. But who can stomach the compromise necessary to convince?
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albaugh
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response 106 of 174:
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Nov 14 05:30 UTC 2000 |
You are not going to convince the BSA to change its view on what is
moral or not. US society as a whole may have been forced in some
instances to legally tolerate what many people believe is immoral.
But that doesn't mean that individuals or groups must abandon beliefs
in morality just because certain practices are legal. In certain areas
operation of adult bookstores or theatres is legal. That doesn't mean
that operators of such establishments are and must be accepted by the
BSA as suitable role models for its leadership.
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mdw
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response 107 of 174:
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Nov 14 06:21 UTC 2000 |
I think in the past, many people have extended resources to the BSA in
the belief that they were a public institution open to all. The BSA has
made it quite clear that they are *not* a public institution. That's
fine, but there are consequences, and one of those consequences is that
those resources *should* no longer be available to the BSA (indeed, they
never should have been in the 1st place). Just what those resources are
is going to be an interesting question for society to resolve, but just
as it's ok for the BSA to discriminate against people, it is and should
be perfectly possible for people to discriminate against the BSA. This
is certainly going to change things, and an interesting question is
whether, in the end, whether BSA will be left as part of mainstream
america, or gets left behind along with shoe-shine boys and door-to-door
salesmen.
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rcurl
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response 108 of 174:
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Nov 14 07:04 UTC 2000 |
There are other programs similar to Boy Scouts. Outward Bound, for
example. I doubt they discriminate. I can't think of the others for
younger boys right now, but aren't Girl Guides, and Campfire Girls
alternatives to Girl Scouts? Some other boy's program will just get
a boost from those parents that resent the Boy Scout policy.
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happyboy
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response 109 of 174:
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Nov 14 12:22 UTC 2000 |
boy scouts. heh, that shit's fer urban folks ennyhoo.
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mary
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response 110 of 174:
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Nov 14 13:23 UTC 2000 |
Re: #103 Exactly what Marcus said in #107. They BSA have a right, as a
private club, to discriminate but not to expect support with public funds.
If the schools want to allow private clubs to use their facilities then
they should allow any group to do so without discrimination. If they
allow Catholic groups to meet then they should also allow wicca groups to
meet.
What the schools should not do is to make a decision that BSA are more
worthy of perks than the KKK. Enough of this shunning and pretty soon
parents will get the feeling that maybe this is not the kind of
organization they want their kids involved with and from there BSA would
be a dying institution. Or at least an institution looking for some
policy changes.
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klg
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response 111 of 174:
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Nov 14 14:27 UTC 2000 |
re 99: The International REd Cros ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to recognize the
counterpart organization in Israel (Magen David Adom)!!!
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aaron
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response 112 of 174:
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Nov 14 15:15 UTC 2000 |
That's not quite true. Magen David Adom has formal observer status, as it
has had for the past fifty years. However, its refusal to display one of
the official emblems of the Red Cross has prevented its admission as a full
member. The "red cross" itself is not a religious symbol, but in fact
is simply a color-reversed Swiss Flag. Nonetheless, many nations view it as
a religious symbol, and the "red crescent" was made available as an
alternative. A third option would need to be approved in a vote of the
192 member countries.
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albaugh
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response 113 of 174:
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Nov 14 17:33 UTC 2000 |
You liberal PC damaged Ann Arborites ought to get a clue: Society is *not*
going to "discriminate against" or shun the Boy Scouts. That includes
teachers, regardless of the witless dogma their various EA union leadership
concocts. Only about 9 of some 1400 United Way "chapters" nation wide
determined that they would not partner with BSA for one reason or another.
That's not a mandate. The overwhelming number of parents do not give a hoot
that homosexuals are not supported as scout leaders, and in fact, they're
darned glad they're not. So you grex types go right ahead believing all this
"we shall overcome" propaganda you congratulate each other with, while
"outside" it's a much different picture.
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rcurl
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response 114 of 174:
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Nov 14 18:24 UTC 2000 |
Of course - discrimination is rampant and very difficult to overturn.
The US has made some progress in this - black people can vote and meet
little overt racism - but dig a little deeper, and there is still lots
of more insidious if less overt discrimination. Homosexuals have only
just started to exercise their rights to civil liberties and freedom
from subtle if not overt discrimination. One can see the barrier to
progress in albaugh's rant.
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sno
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response 115 of 174:
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Nov 14 19:29 UTC 2000 |
I believe that what seems to pass for discrimination in the dogma
espoused in today's culture is nothing more than a call for attention
and legitimization. To be called a bigot in this world just seems
to mean your honest disagreement has absolutely no validity and that
the opinions have no basis except hate.
I've heard some pretty hateful things from those seeking political
protection from situations that are perfectly valid judgements on
all fronts, except for their personal perspective.
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mary
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response 116 of 174:
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Nov 14 19:39 UTC 2000 |
Would the gay parents of a boy scout be welcome on a
camping sleep-out as one of the parent chaperones?
If your son was one of the boys going on that camp out
would you be more concerned that one of the adults was
homosexual or a priest?
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bru
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response 117 of 174:
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Nov 14 20:02 UTC 2000 |
The Boy Scouts actually reported an increase in membership over the last year.
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gelinas
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response 118 of 174:
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Nov 14 21:27 UTC 2000 |
Mary, adults are allowed to sleep in the tent only of their own child. So
a gay parent on a campout would not be in any other kid's tent. Not a
problem.
And, in Ann Arbor, at least, "the schools" do not support Boy Scouts. The
PTOs are the chartered organizations that support the Scouts. It is up to
them, not to the Superintendent or Board of Education, to decide which
organizations they will, and will not support.
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