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Grex > Classicalmusic > #45: Most Popular Classical Music - acquiring a basic LP collection | |
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| 25 new of 194 responses total. |
md
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response 89 of 194:
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Oct 18 14:03 UTC 1999 |
Moussorgsky.
"Stranger in Paradise," and all the other music
in the musical "Kismet," is based on Borodin.
I love Smetana's Moldau. The main theme eventually
became "Hatikvah," the Israeli national anthem.
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md
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response 90 of 194:
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Oct 18 14:17 UTC 1999 |
[A tune in Wellington's Victory sounds like
"The Bear Went over the Mountain."]
I don't think songs, with or without words,
are ever referred to as "program music."
Ballet scores might qualify, however, as
does what is called "incidental music" --
music meant to be performed during the
action or between the scenes of a stage play.
Some of it is quite famous, such as Sibelius'
"Valse Triste," which is one of the musical
numbers he wrote for a play by his brother-
in-law in which, among other things, a woman
dances a waltz with Death. "Valse Triste"
was staggeringly popular in its day, but is
now all but forgotten.
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remmers
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response 91 of 194:
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Oct 20 18:46 UTC 1999 |
Re resp:89 - Hm, guess I didn't know that about "Kismet."
Kind of like "Carmen Jones", where the music is Bizet but
the words are Oscar Hammerstein II.
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davel
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response 92 of 194:
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Oct 21 02:05 UTC 1999 |
I usually don't think of ballet & incidental music as program music, but I
feel the same way about it - if it's good music, it's good music. In this
category, I think my favorites are Tchaikowski's Romeo & Juliet & Mendelsohn's
Midsummer Night's Dream.
_A_propos_ the latter, maybe 15 years ago I heard (on some NPR program) a
performance of it with Shakespeare's words added. I think it was a live
concert; wish I could find a recording of it. (I tried.) Same for Carnival
of the Animals with Ogden Nash's verse; I've heard that on the radio more than
once but never been able to find a recording.
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coyote
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response 93 of 194:
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Oct 27 02:01 UTC 1999 |
I don't understand why there is often a stigma attached to program music.
Is it considered less serious than "pure" music? Many of my favorite pieces
are considered program music. Does that mean that I have bad musical taste?
And, on a side note, what is it about Richard Strauss that seems to bother
several people here? Strauss isn't one of my favorite composers, but I don't
object to his music and there are some pieces that I particularly like, such
as Death and Transfiguration, and Don Quixote. (I enjoy his horn music, too,
but that sounds so different from his tone poems that I don't think it falls
into the same category).
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keesan
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response 94 of 194:
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Oct 27 16:54 UTC 1999 |
Maybe a larger percentage of program music was written by people who could
not write good music and tried to sell the titles?
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albaugh
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response 95 of 194:
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Oct 27 17:12 UTC 1999 |
I always had the understanding that "program music" was music created for its
own merit, not associated with an opera, symphony, concerto, etc. (Although
a symphony itself could be considered program music, I guess.) If that
understanding is correct, I don't see what could be more "serious" than
program music.
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orinoco
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response 96 of 194:
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Oct 27 20:58 UTC 1999 |
Well, it does mean a piece of music that stands on its own, but it also means
a piece of music that's written to depict something (like Wellington's Victory
etc.) rather than just for the sake of the way it sounds.
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albaugh
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response 97 of 194:
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Oct 27 20:59 UTC 1999 |
Ja, OK. But what does "serious" have to do about it?
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dbratman
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response 98 of 194:
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Nov 2 21:28 UTC 1999 |
The term "program music" means, not music designed to be played on a
program, but music _with_ a program, i.e. that tells a story. Tone
poems, like Richard Strauss's, or Smetana's "Moldau", or the "1812
Overture", are program music; symphonies and concertos usually aren't.
There is a tendency for program music to appear more on pops concerts
than regular symphony concerts, and to be the preferred classical music
of people who don't listen to much classical: that's one source for the
notion that program music is less serious. I, for one, tend to find
program music less satisfying than abstract works, but it would be a
long job to explain why.
That's not the only reason I find Richard Strauss terminally boring,
though. (Mahler is frequently abstract, and even more tedious.) I
found the key to my problems with Strauss when I listened to Lorin
Maazel's 60-minute orchestral precis of Wagner's Ring Cycle. It
sounded like a 60-minute Richard Strauss tone poem, except that it was
a lot better than any actual 60-minute Richard Strauss tone poem.
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albaugh
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response 99 of 194:
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Nov 3 18:04 UTC 1999 |
From e-webster:
program music Function: noun Date: 1879
: music intended to suggest a sequence of images or incidents
So my "understanding" of program music was wrong, exactly opposite.
So yes, I could see how some "snob types" might assert that music
written to tell or support a story is less serious than music written
for its own sake. But what's the point of such an assertion? Take
Dvorak's "New World" symphony: Yes, it's a symphony in form, but its
melodic elements are impressions of what he heard visiting the USA.
Now those melodies might or might not have been taken from folk music
that told a story. But it shows that to write serious music you need
not have it burst forth from some "fountain of seriousness".
Tchaikovsky's Finale of his 4th symphony builds on a melody based on a
Russian folk tune. Well, why the heck not?!
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keesan
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response 100 of 194:
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Nov 3 19:39 UTC 1999 |
;From Arthur Loesser's Men, Women, and Pianos, a Social History:
Favorite subjects for program music included storms (rain, waves, wind),
shepherds playing pipes, etc. Josef Wolfls at an 1800 concert played" "The
quiet sea--the rise of a squall--lightning, thunder, a heavy storm which
however subsides after some time--former conditions of the sea--transition
into a well-known song on which the player makes variations and
improvisations"
Another favorite topic was dances, and yet another battle scenes. It did not
take a lot of musical talent to write bugle calls, cannon shots, cavalry
charges, fog of battle, cries of hte wounded, national anthems, and victory
balls. There was a special notation for pianistic cannon shots (played with
the flat of the hand on the lowest notes). In fact two notations, one for
English and one for French cannon, were used in Wellington's Sieg.
Hybrids: Hummel's Waltzes with Trios and a Battel-Coda for the Apollo Rooms.
"This coda has been described as undanceable; thus, we might arrive at a
picture of the Apollo Rooms customers suddenly poising on tiptoe in mid-waltze
to enjoy the musical fracas." Special pedals were often built into early 19th
century pianos with which to imitate bells and drums for military pieces.
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dbratman
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response 101 of 194:
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Nov 9 02:26 UTC 1999 |
There's really something of a continuum between program music and
abstract music. Using a folk tune (like Tchaikovsky), or something that
sounds like a folk tune but isn't (like Dvorak's New World), doesn't
make a piece program music, though it may make it national music. Some
supposedly abstract works have "secret" programs that the composer had
in mind but that he didn't intend listeners to know about: that's the
case for all of Tchaikovsky's major symphonies (nos. 4-6). Then there
are people who, preferring program music and having a hard time treating
abstract music as abstract, have written their own programs, sometimes
attributing them to the composer. The story that the theme of
Beethoven's Fifth is "Fate knocking at the door" is an example of that.
There was a lot of this fake program-writing going on in the 19th
century, and that, more than anything else, is what gave program music a
bad name among abstract-music lovers.
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oddie
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response 102 of 194:
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Nov 9 04:47 UTC 1999 |
I have heard that Beethoven's Fifth is written "about" the French Revolution.
Supposedly some of the themes are taken from Revolutionary songs of
the fighters.
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md
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response 103 of 194:
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Nov 9 12:41 UTC 1999 |
Not only is it possible to superimpose a
program on an abstract work, it's also
possible to make up a new program for music
that already has one. Disney did that in
Fantasia, where, for example, music for a
ballet about a ritual sacrifice in pagan
Russia becomes the accompaniment to a
kindergarten history of life on earth up to
the extinction of the dinosaurs. I think
program music was generally regarded as a
category of music neither good nor bad in
itself until those cherubs' asses morphed
into pink love-hearts during Beethoven's 6th
in Fantasia. It takes artistic integrity
and a real effort of will to look at that
and say, "Nevertheless . . ."
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dbratman
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response 104 of 194:
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Nov 11 21:03 UTC 1999 |
I think I can say with a fair hope at accuracy that there are no French
revolutionary tunes in Beethoven's Fifth or any others of his
symphonies. There's a story that the Third (the "Eroica") was
originally dedicated to Napoleon, but that when he declared himself
Emperor, Beethoven angrily tore up the page. But that story may well be
no more accurate than the one about "Fate knocking at the door." The
Eroica is sometimes seen as presenting a biographical picture of an
anonymous Great Man, but if viewed as program music it's rather odd, as
what is the Funeral March doing in the middle?
Possibly the work you're thinking of is "Wellington's Victory", a
stunningly awful piece of hackwork that Beethoven tossed off for some
celebratory concert. In it, the English, represented by "God Save the
King", defeat (by being louder than) the French, who if I recall
correctly are represented by "The Bear Went Over the Mountain".
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orinoco
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response 105 of 194:
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Nov 20 16:20 UTC 1999 |
(Actually, the Fantasia use of the music from the Rite of Spring wasn't as
ridiculous as it sounds, since IIRC -- it's been a while since I've seen
it -- the music they use is mostly "nature waking itself up" rather than
dancing or sacrifice)
(And I think the French are represented by the French song whose tune was
borrowed for "The Bear Went Over the Mountain," if that makes any sort of
difference)
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keesan
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response 106 of 194:
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Nov 20 23:11 UTC 1999 |
See the new item I just started in Music on popular music at Kiwanis.
Gems from the classical collection in the ten cent bin:
1. Phillipe Entremont: Ritual Fire Dance and other Piano Pieces
2. Jessica Crawford at the Organ (with heavy mascara): Gypsy Love Song, A
Wandering Minstrel, Buttercup, Artist's Life, Treasure Waltz, and other organ
favorites (?)
3. Antonio Janigro, An Album of Cello Favorites. Granados Goyescas, Paradies
Sicilienne, Senaille Allegro spiritoso, Popper Chanson villageoise, Falla
Ritual Fire Dance, Popper Papillon, and some better known composers
4. Mendelssohn Songs Without Words
5. Miniatures by Johann Strauss
6. Biedermeier Dance Music III, Joseph Lanner, Dances Polkas and Waltzese
by Joseph Lanner, including Wilde Jagd, the Dance Around the Bride, Favorit
Polka (1801-1843).
The book on piano music I am reading mentions that a lot of easy popular music
was written in the nineteenth century (playable on organ). Anyone know more
about any of the above? These are the records that did not sell for five
months, even at ten cents, but must have been popular at one time.
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dbratman
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response 107 of 194:
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Nov 22 23:37 UTC 1999 |
Mendelssohn's "Songs without Words" are miniature piano pieces which
were highly popular in the 19th century, but are way too sugary for
most people's tastes today. The most famous, "Spring Song", has shown
up on old animated cartoons to comically accompany characters weaving
around drunk on springtime love. I've seen those cartoons a lot more
often than I've heard the piece in concert.
Josef Lanner was the first of the red-hot Viennese waltz masters. He
was pretty much driven off the market, though, by the superior product
of one Johann Strauss, who in turn was succeeded by his even more
talented son, Johann Strauss the Younger, who is surely the Johann
Strauss of the other CD, as _he_ was the guy who wrote "The Beautiful
Blue Danube", "Tales from the Vienna Woods", and the other works that
actually survive from the Biedermeier civilization. I've rarely heard
any Lanner, and didn't find it too memorable, but it could be an
interesting historical curiosity if you like that sort of stuff.
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keesan
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response 108 of 194:
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Nov 23 00:33 UTC 1999 |
'the other CD'? We are talking vinyl here. Has anyone ever heard or even
heard of Ritual Fire Dance before?
I have played Songs without Words and like them.
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orinoco
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response 109 of 194:
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Nov 23 04:22 UTC 1999 |
According to http://www.wfu.edu/wfunews/releases/092399v.htm, there is
someone named Phillipe Entremont who is a conductor and piano soloist with the
Vienna Chamber Orchestra as of this year. No idea about the piece, though;
never heard of it.
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md
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response 110 of 194:
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Nov 23 12:01 UTC 1999 |
Isn't Ritual Fire Dance from Falla's El Amor Brujo?
I'm not familiar with much Falla beyond El Sombrero
de Tres Picos, which I love, so I can't confirm that.
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keesan
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response 111 of 194:
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Nov 23 21:16 UTC 1999 |
I never even heard of Falla until running across him at Kiwanis. What can
you tell us about him (her?).
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md
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response 112 of 194:
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Nov 24 01:22 UTC 1999 |
Manuel de Falla. Spanish. Early 20th century.
Wrote some colorful Spanish-sounding music that
became very popular, including the aforementioned
El Amor Brujo (Love, the Magician) and El Sombrero
de Tres Picos (The Three-Cornered Hat). The latter
is truly brilliant, in my opinion. His name
appeared in a memorable NY Times crossword puzzle
that featured puns on the names of famous composers:
"HANDELWITHCARE," "PUTOUTDEFALLA."
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dbratman
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response 113 of 194:
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Nov 24 23:32 UTC 1999 |
CD, LP, whatever.
De Falla's "Ritual Fire Dance" is a snappy little show-stopper. Part of
a ballet, it was written for orchestra but is often arranged. I've
heard it on harp.
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