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| 25 new of 191 responses total. |
keesan
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response 85 of 191:
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Feb 5 23:25 UTC 2013 |
Got lots of evidence with more to come, then celebrated with an hour at the
archeology museum looking at door hardware from Pompeii.
We are wiring two pairs of 3-way light switches (labelled at various times
and places blue, yellow, white, black - this could be a comedy of errors)
and hope to get the actual fixtures tomorrow to test them with - $10 IKEA
basic ceiling spotlights without shades. They come with 3 35W halogen GU10
bulbs (21 of them will generate a lot of heat) and can be replaced with 3W
LED ($3) or 9W LED (5)- or cheaper if I want to bother bidding.
The water heater should have a minute timer that only works when a time-of-day
timer is ON. If we use the same relay for that and the space heaters, they
can be set to always be OFF from 11 am to 7 pm, then to go to the thermostated
temperature at other times, using cheap 24V non-programmable timers for the
heaters, and the 110V timer for the water heater with possibly a different
relay (110V relay) if someone can figure this out. Some timers let you set
things to be on all weekend (off-peak rate). I don't know how we can use 24V
thermostats and also a 110V timer with the same relay but then I don't exactly
know what a relay is other than a little box with screws and wires.
If things are set up right, I just set the timer to OFF at night and in
mid-day, let the temperature fall for 8 hours (2-3 deg F?), and let the water
heater stop heating. In non-heating weather, I leave it all OFF and only turn
on the water heater as needed. This might be easier than the HRV to set up.
Maybe only run the HRV during off-peak hours and put it on the second meter
too, except the outside air is coldest then. I would only use it during
heating season.
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keesan
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response 86 of 191:
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Feb 6 03:50 UTC 2013 |
Turns out we already have two of the non-electronic daily timers. One is
plug-in (you plug it into the wall and plug something into it) and set it to
go on and off once a day. It is designed for a calcinator (incinerator?) and
is about 3" high, 4" wide, and twice as long, and looks maybe 50s. They still
make these in smaller footprints. The other is much larger and can be set
to go on and off at various times each day of the week. These are also made
smaller, and both types come plug-in or wire-in for use with lights or water
heaters or other things that are either always off/off or have their own
thermostats (such as portable space heaters or air conditioners).
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keesan
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response 87 of 191:
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Feb 6 10:42 UTC 2013 |
I was able to read tsty's (filtered) response offering wiring help when I
extracted this item to a file and emailed him at grex. tsty - if you don't
read your grex mail email me your current email address to my grex mail.
Grex is awfully slow again today.
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keesan
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response 88 of 191:
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Feb 6 23:00 UTC 2013 |
My architect friend suggested if I am planning to turn off the water heater
from 11-7 every day that I get one with 6" insulation so the water will only
cool of 1 degree F. I responded that I wanted it to put heat into the house
for 8 hours while the heaters are turned off, and that I don't mind the water
temp going down from 90 to 85 because I don't shower in the middle of the day
anyway and if I minded I could set it to 95 or 100 to start with.
I then called DTE and talked to a very interested customer service rep in
Grand Rapids who had never heard of the time-of-day space conditioning and/or
water heating rate but gave me all the information. It is about 6.5 cents/kwh
during heating season (slightly less off peak then) and about the same in the
summer (May-Oct?) during offpeak but much higher onpeak. I won't be heating
in the summer, and will turn off the water heater and just run it for 10 min
to shower after 7 pm. The rep wanted to know all about this and said it made
his day that someone was that interested and knowledgeable. Usually people
just call to complain about their high electric bills. He got his water bill
down from 90 to 30/month by fixing the washer hose, and has a perfect baby
and a not so perfect mother in law, and may come see the house some day.
The HRV can go on either meter as long as I don't run it in the summer from
11-7 (I don't generate steam then since I cook outside and shower after dark).
Senior citizen rate is also about 6.6 cents/KWh if you don't go over 10/day,
so I could put it on the regular meter if I wanted to use it in the summer
daytime. There is much more space on the time of day meter and it needs a
double slot for 240V (25W).
My 750W hydronic baseboard heater arrived and I won Jim a 1250W ceiling heater
(round) for $56 with shipping that usually sells for $60-65 (double that at
a real store). IKEA got postponed a day so I am sorting out FOIA papers and
finding a lot of fraud to document. I have lots of documentation. Sort of
like a very large crossword puzzle with some wrong clues.
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jep
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response 89 of 191:
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Feb 7 00:45 UTC 2013 |
Have you considered a tankless water heater, Sindi?
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keesan
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response 90 of 191:
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Feb 7 01:50 UTC 2013 |
I considered a tankless water heater but they require far more amps than a
tank type to run, and you can't use just a small amount of hot water (minimum
is about 3/4 gal a minute), and even though I only want about 1/2 gal/min of
warm water for a shower the city would make me put in something large enough
to provide 2 gal/min of hot water to two showers and three sinks. If I got
one sized for one shower at the required 2 gpm it would fill a bath in 10
minutes. The tank type are also cheaper and will keep the bathroom warm
during peak hours in winter. Not that there is much difference in electric
cost during peak and nonpeak hours in winter.
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jep
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response 91 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:04 UTC 2013 |
There are tankless water heaters that are at the point of usage; at the
sink or the shower. $228 at Home Depot. 240 volts, 54 amps; that's a
lot of watts but not so much if you only use it for 10 minutes per day.
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keesan
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response 92 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:38 UTC 2013 |
I am required to have hot water at ALL points of use, not just one.
A 30 gal tank-type water heater used for 10 min/day uses 20A of electricity
(with 4500W elements, 240V) and a 30A breaker with No. 10 wire.
Our second electric panel is 100A. A tankless heater would need to provide
at least 5 gal/min of hot water - how many does the Home Depot 54A one
provide? The tank-type heaters lose heat to the surroundings but if you only
leave them on during heating season, or turn them on for 10 min prior to use
and then use up all the hot water, they don't waste much. If you heat up the
whole tank it will cool off in a day or so in a cold basement. If you run
them for 10 min only the top 1/3 heats up (top element heats), which would
be about 10 gal of water at shower temperature.
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tod
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response 93 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:43 UTC 2013 |
I have a tankless water heater. It gives me no respect I tell ya.
Seriously though, it's wonderful. I wouldn't recommend it for low
occupancy homes, though.
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keesan
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response 94 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:58 UTC 2013 |
What is a low occupancy home?
The Home Depot Tempra 12 whole-house model delivers 2.3 gpm (at 107F?) and
is recommended for 1 bathroom in warm climates. $469, 60A breaker at 240V.
A standard water heater is about $200. 1/6 hour x 6.2 cents/kWh x 4.5KW is
about 5 cents per shower. Even if I took a shower every day, that comes to
365 x .05 = about $20/year for hot water. The payback for a tankless heater
would be more than 10 years if it saved 100% of lost heat, or 50 years saving
20% which is claimed to be typical savings. I doubt either type would last
that many years. The relay and timers to turn on the water heater for 10 min
at a time are cheap ($5 for a timer, $20 at most for a relay). It does waste
a bit more space in the bathroom to have a tank-type heater and they need to
be drained every few years to remove sediment. If I never took a bath, and
did not have to meet code, I could get a smaller cheaper model tankless that
delivered .5 gal per minute of water at 40 degrees F temperature rise.
In the summer I don't really need a water heater. Last summer I used a
gallon of warm water from a black rainbarrel to wash with.
Stand in tub, wash with a washcloth, rinse with a cup. I learned to bathe
out of a bucket in Macedonia (and to save the excess for laundry). For
washing hair, 2 gal total is better. A warm room helps.
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jep
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response 95 of 191:
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Feb 7 05:09 UTC 2013 |
I'm not going to argue it, Sindi. If you want to know more, I am sure
you can find out.
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rcurl
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response 96 of 191:
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Feb 7 05:16 UTC 2013 |
A gas heated water heater is much less expensive to operate than an
electric heated water heater.
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keesan
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response 97 of 191:
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Feb 7 10:52 UTC 2013 |
I did a lot of research on tankless water heaters and decided it made more
sense for me to use a tank-type and leave it off during non-heating season.
See http://waterheatertimer.org. They list suggested brands of relay and
timer, where to buy them, and how to wire them, which also eliminates standby
losses and does not require a larger electric service.
A gas water heater requires, first, that you pay the gas company $10.50/month
service, which is more than I would spend on heating water electrically.
It also requires a chimney or equivalent, and gas line piping and probably
some charge for cooking up to gas.
Electricity 3412 BTU per KWh at 6.2 cents/KWh. 1000 BTU about 2 cents.
4.500 Kwatts x 1/6 hour x 6.2 cents/KWH x 30 days = $4.50/month for
a daily shower. Plus $2/month customer charge (which I am paying
anyway for heat half the year) to get the lower rate. $6.50.
Gas 28 cents/100 cubic feet, 1029 BTU per cubic foot.
.28 cents for 1029 BTU. Plus $10.50/month customer charge.
My numbers are probably off, since other people's calculations show electric
hot water costing 1.5 times as much as gas ($550 vs $400/year). If gas costs a
third as much. $1.50/month for a daily shower (assuming you could turn on
the gas water heater and heat only the top third of the tank, which is unlikely
since the burner is at the bottom), plus $10.50/month customer charge.
If I were heating water with gas, a tankless heater would make sense.
The typical American family of three is said to use about 65 gal/day of
hot water at 135 deg F. I might use as much as 5 showering in the summer
every day (1/2 gpm for 10 minutes) at 87 deg F. In winter I shower
less often (don't get sweaty). So the main cost of hot water would be
standby losses, which I won't have except during heating season. If the
bathroom gets too warm I will turn off the water heater.
A tankless water heater would require me to use at least 1/2 gpm (the
whole-house ones require about 2/3 gpm) which is much more than I would
want for washing dishes. In summer I use cold water, in winter tepid,
which is better supplied by a tank-type. I wash laundry in cold water.
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tod
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response 98 of 191:
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Feb 7 17:16 UTC 2013 |
Leaving your water tank "off" will breed bacteria. It's a very bad idea.
You do dishes in cold water?
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jep
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response 99 of 191:
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Feb 7 17:45 UTC 2013 |
I would think it should be fine to wash dishes in cold water if you use a
rinse with bleach (or another chemical) to kill the bacteria.
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slynne
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response 100 of 191:
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Feb 7 17:58 UTC 2013 |
resp:99 FWIW, very few people who wash dishes by hand use water that is
hot enough to kill bacteria. The warm water is mostly for comfort but
also to help break up the grease. I wash dishes in cold water on hot
summer days with no ill effects with just regular old dish soap.
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nharmon
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response 101 of 191:
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Feb 7 18:37 UTC 2013 |
A hot water tank isn't like a pipe where you can be reasonably sure all
of the water is being recycled. As a result, you have to be careful
about bacterial growth. Legionella is the bacteria responsible for
Legionnaires' disease, and here is its temperature disinfection:
* 70 to 80 C (158 to 176 F): Disinfection range
* At 66 C (151 F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
* At 60 C (140 F): Legionellae die within 32 minutes
* At 55 C (131 F): Legionellae die within 5 to 6 hours
* Above 50 C (122 F): They can survive but do not multiply
* 35 to 46 C (95 to 115 F): Ideal growth range
* 20 to 50 C (68 to 122 F): Legionellae growth range
* Below 20 C (68 F): Legionellae can survive but are dormant
I would not leave my hot water heater set lower than 140 F, unless I
was going to be away for an extended period of time. And then I would
reset it when I returned and let the water run for a while before using.
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slynne
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response 102 of 191:
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Feb 7 19:51 UTC 2013 |
It is a bad idea to keep a hot water heater above 120F though due to
burns but I might try raising mine to 131F just in case.
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rcurl
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response 103 of 191:
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Feb 7 20:12 UTC 2013 |
Electric power also has a service charge and surcharges, which exceed in
sum the gas service charge. Also, electric heating is also more
expensive than gas heating for the house. I will agree that if you lower
house temperature enough you can lower your personal electric heating
bill below using gas at a bigher comfort temperature.
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tod
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response 104 of 191:
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Feb 7 20:33 UTC 2013 |
In Seattle, electric baseboard heat was more economical than blown
gas heat.
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rcurl
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response 105 of 191:
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Feb 7 20:57 UTC 2013 |
Data? Also, in considering electric heat vs gas, one should look at the whole
picture, including uses of either or both for cooking, heating, hot water,
It is, after all, only the total bill that matters.
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bellstar
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response 106 of 191:
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Feb 7 21:10 UTC 2013 |
Re #102:
That's what mixer taps are for. Scalding hot water keeps the tank and pipes
clean and at point of use it's brought down to any temperature the person
requires for a particular use.
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keesan
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response 107 of 191:
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Feb 7 22:45 UTC 2013 |
Sinks and tubs are now required to have temperature limiting valves in their
faucets (105 or 110, or both). DTE charges $10/month fee for electric and
$10.40/month for gas, just for reading the meter. Not having gas saves over
$120/year. It also saves the cost of a gas furnace and water heater.
Baseboard electric heaters can be as low as $27 each and do not require
ductwork or gas pipes. They do not pollute at the point of use. There is
no chance of CO poisoning. They let you keep each room at a different
temperature. My total electric heat bill will probably be only about
$100/year (calculated) or maybe less with the heat recovery ventilator (I was
assuming no heat recovery and 1/10 air change per hour average). The primary
cost is for insulation and wiring and a few space heaters.
Jim takes a hot bath once a week (heater set to high, fully heated) which
should kill any bacteria.
Detergent kills bacteria on dishes. Hot water melting solid grease is bad
for the plumbing because it will just solidify some place else. We don't cook
with solid grease, and cold water gets things clean. Laundry may get a bit
cleaner with hot water but we don't care if it is bright white.
Today we are deciding what size hydronic baseboard heaters to use downstairs
in the living room and kitchen. Jim thinks I should use twice the heating
load then I can turn off the heat for 8 hours and heat it up again quickly.
We have three big metal boxes with timers for controlling relays to turn heat
on and off. One is designed to turn a calcinator on and off three times a
day but the little trip pieces are missing. One is a 7-day model that turns
things on and off once a day. I was hoping to turn the heat off and night
too but only 11 am to 7 pm is really important. I can turn off the bedroom
heat manually (and go get dressed in the bathroom in the morning). This one
is a box about 12" high with a huge metal dial and a lot of screws at the
bottom for controlling up to four different loads (SP or DP?). The third one
is an enormous yellow box probably for a commercial building that is
electronic and programmable (but antique - early computer age) that lets you
set it to compensate for outdoor temperature so the heat knows when to come
on to reach a certain temperature. It has various plug-in options. It is
vastly overkill for my house. For $25 or so I could buy a newer but flimsy
timer that might last 2-5 years and will turn the heat on and off twice a day,
same way every day, or for more money a 5-2 or 7-day model.
We have drawn in kitchen table and likely cabinet locations and there is one
possible spot for a heater between two windows. The intake air for
ventilation blows right at the heater, which is helpful. (I think it does
the same in the bathroom too). Next we need to place the thermostat. This
is somewhat determined by distance from the heater (but not near the stove
or refrigerator) and also by how to wire. Like a light switch and light, you
can feed power to the switch then the heater or the heater then the switch
(and another wire back to the heater). Unfortunately the stove is in the
middle of the first route and if you go the other way round you reach the
refrigerator but there are other options. The bathroom heater has a built-in
thermostat and will be used primarily on-off (or to heat the house up quickly
since it is 1500W and the others are maybe 1000 for much larger rooms with
450W heat loads).
Today we went with a neighbor to IKEA and looked at the light fixtures.
The ones we thought we wanted were indeed the right ones. The short $10
models (14") with three halogen bulbs tended to shine sideways into your eyes
because they have no shades, but are fine next to walls where you can point
them at the wall (or ceiling, if wall mounted) so we got five (also for use
pointed straight down in the small bathroom). In the middle of the room we
got the $30 models with white shades - one round for LR and one 30" long for
over the kitchen table. Jim wanted me to get a big round one with frosted
glass shade - I told him if he ever goes to the house he can change it and
move the old one upstairs. The first ones were displayed with LED bulbs and
there was much less sideways light. We had lunch there and got the 3/$2.50
chocolate bar specials. Jim dreamed up a way to attach the fixtures without
needed wiremold round boxes (which would lower them 1") by putting the 1/2"
deep plain metal round ceiling pans inside the fixtures. Normally the pans
are not enough cubic inches for two wires but the fixtures themselves become
the wiring enclosures this way, and the pans hold them to the ceiling.
We will reuse the two wiremold boxes that we already poked holes in for smoke
alarms (which also have two wires), or upstairs with wiremold conduit (since
you can't run that through these fixtures, and the upstairs ceilings are 7'
10" instead of 7' 6").
Today my builder friend is sick and also does not want to drive home to past
Chelsea in snow and sleet so we are doing design without him. Jim wants to
put double ventilation in the kitchen, but I think since it is the closest
to the HRV it will already be getting much more air pulled through it (less
friction loss). Our architect is busy preparing a Sunday demo of how to build
with fiberglass-cement on styrofoam (using yogurt cups as houses) and has not
finished ventilation design (after two days of drawing).
Heater wattage determines heater length: 34" for 750W, 46" for 100W, 58" for
1250W - so the room size may determine the wattage. With a small house you
don't want to waste wall space. Jim drew in a piano on one wall. I was
concerned that our heaters ended up on the south wall where we would be
getting solar gain, but Jim pointed out that they will be off from 11 to 7
when you get most of the gain (11-3 actually). The kitchen table will be in
a cozy corner.
The DTE rep told me most people complained about their electric bills during
summer cooling season, when they run their ovens and air conditioners at the
same time. We plan to cool only by ventilating at night, and to cook on the
porch and shower only after opening up at night. We also have an induction
hotplate, microwave oven, and electric frypan and pressure cooker to reduce
energy use. If we were more fanatic we would build a solar cooker to reflect
sun's heat onto a black pressure cooker, and also use solar hot water in
summer. (Black rainbarrels are low tech solar hot water). In summer I use
laptop computers (also in winter nowadays). What else uses a lot of power?
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keesan
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response 108 of 191:
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Feb 7 23:45 UTC 2013 |
Jim drew two baseboard heaters and one bathroom fan-forced heater as wide red
lines (3" deep - same as the window projections) and I think we decided on
the 1000W 46" models which are 6" longer than the kitchen table and will heat
things up faster in the morning. There are also 1250W 58". About $20
difference for 250W.
He disagrees with our friend about being able to run line-voltage thermostats
all off one relay but different circuits, and having one timer control all
the thermostats. He thinks they would need to be low-voltage thermostats all
on one circuit and a high-amperage relay. He offers two suggestions:
1) use a cheap line-voltage thermostat and turn the heat on and off manually
- but if I leave in the morning and don't turn off the heat it could be on
all day, or turned off before 11 am it might not heat the house up enough.
2) use a programmable thermostat with each heater. $45 instead of $20-25.
I might put a programmable one in the kitchen, and a non-programmable in the
other room (bedroom/living room) so the heat does not wake me up at 7 am, turn
the heat up there when I wake, get dressed in the bathroom.
For a total heat bill of $100/year, with the the heat off for 1/3 of every day,
I could save 1 cent (20%) on 1/3 of the heat (pay 3.7 instead of 4.7
cents/kWh) or 1/3 x $20/year, or about $7/year (assuming equal amount of heat
used day and night- day would be warmer and use less heat so maybe 1/4x$20/year
=$5). For $200/year I would save $10/year. Four thermostats at $25 extra each
is $100. Ten to twenty year payback. I will probably get programmable just to
prove a point, at least for one room per floor, and heaters which provide
double the heat load.
If I paid my friend for the time to set up a timer and relays,
and for the timer and relays, it could be a 100 year payback.
We can run THHN No. 12 wires through the same conduit as the surface-wired
outlets and cover both with chair rail (to the thermostats).
In the bathroom we need to coordinate supply air, toilet paper holder, heater
and light switch in one wall (not blowing hot air on toilet tank or cold air on
toilet user or catching toilet paper on fire).
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keesan
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response 109 of 191:
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Feb 8 00:07 UTC 2013 |
Since the downstairs heat load is under 1500W (with ceiling insulation) I
could probably pass inspection with only one space heater (bathroom) and just
plan ahead for the others (run wire in the conduit for heater and thermostat)
and choose the heater size later. I don't think they are even requiring
bathroom doors (just doors between inside and out, and down and up).
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