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Grex > Coop13 > #82: Member proposal restricting staff's ability to delete conference items. |  |
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| 25 new of 108 responses total. |
gull
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response 83 of 108:
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Feb 6 18:45 UTC 2004 |
I think that weeding out old items woudl be covered by individual
conference policy. (I fully expect, for example, that the 'classified'
conference would set a conference policy of deleting items after a set
period of time.) Archiving or "rolling over" conferences doesn't
actually involve deleting any items, so it wouldn't fall under this
policy. I suppose the deletion of a whole conference would be a grey
area; if you think it's necessary I could add a specific exception for that.
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albaugh
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response 84 of 108:
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Feb 6 21:52 UTC 2004 |
If this proposal is meant to be "binding" upon bbs administration, then there
should probably be something in there about entire-conference item deletion.
Or maybe a disclaimer saying that this policy does not apply to that.
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gelinas
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response 85 of 108:
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Feb 8 16:37 UTC 2004 |
After all the debate, both in this item and in the others on the general
subject, I think I understand what this proposal is hoped to accomplish,
but I think it misses the target. I think a much simpler proposal would
accomplish the goal in a much more straightforward manner:
Proposed: An item's author, the person who entered the
item in a conference, shall have the authority to remove
that item from the original conference and any conferences
to which it has been linked. If the software installed
on grex does not give the author sufficient capability,
the author may seek assistance from staff and fairwitnesses.
A single vote, yes or no, will settle the question until someone brings it
up again. If gull does not want to amend his proposal to use this text,
I will hope that his proposal fails and enter this as yet another proposal
on the subject.
NB: Although I am in favour of the proposal as I have stated it, I expect
that it would fail. I think the clarity it would provide worth another
24 days of anguish. I would also hope that the discussion of it would
be informed by the preceding discussions and so not replow infertile ground.
It occurs to me that failed proposals are usually not recorded and so are
often not seen as establishing an affirmative policy. I would appreciate
assistance in re-wording this proposal to permit appropriate recording
of the ultimate result. Unless and until gull accepts this amendment to
his proposal, please use e-mail to make suggestions to me. Note that I
have my mail from grex forwarded to my permanent address,
gelinas@umich.edu
Use whichever address is most convenient for you. Replies are promised,
and I will give credit where it is due, if I enter this proposal myself.
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jmsaul
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response 86 of 108:
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Feb 8 16:41 UTC 2004 |
If this proposal is passed, it will do a lot to choke off discussion, because
anyone who doesn't like how the discussion in their item goes can just nuke
it.
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gelinas
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response 87 of 108:
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Feb 8 16:42 UTC 2004 |
Arguments like that are why I expect it to fail. And also why I would
probably vote against it myself.
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boltwitz
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response 88 of 108:
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Feb 8 16:45 UTC 2004 |
Weirdo.
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jmsaul
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response 89 of 108:
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Feb 8 16:50 UTC 2004 |
And the work-arounds would be really annoying (entering duplicate copies of
items, for example).
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boltwitz
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response 90 of 108:
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Feb 8 16:54 UTC 2004 |
And the Jews would have a field day.
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tod
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response 91 of 108:
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Feb 8 18:11 UTC 2004 |
Items almost invariably attract a bit of drift. This proposal would be
inviting abuse by the authors much like Grex staff by not restoring vandalized
items invites abuse by popcorn
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gull
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response 92 of 108:
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Feb 8 18:49 UTC 2004 |
Re resp:85: The problem with that proposal, as I see it, is if it were
in place it would not have made it clear that staff don't have the right
to remove items on their own initiative. Therefore, Valerie would still
have been able to claim that she wasn't acting against any set policy.
I just don't feel voting *down* a proposal sets a clear policy.
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gull
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response 93 of 108:
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Feb 8 18:57 UTC 2004 |
I'm going to borrow a quote from janc's response 140 in item 106, about
Valerie's deletion of her items, to show why I feel this proposal is
necessary:
"She thought it was obviously within her rights and expected others to
think so too."
Obviously this is a point of policy that has to be clarified, one way or
another. Valerie believed that, as a staff member, she could delete her
personal items and that this was perfectly legitimate. If you believe
that's wrong, you should consider voting yes on my proposal. If you
believe that this is a power staff should have, then vote no.
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gelinas
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response 94 of 108:
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Feb 8 19:47 UTC 2004 |
I think you miss the point, gull: she thought she had the right AS AUTHOR
to delete the items she had entered. AS STAFF, she ASSISTED the author
in accomplishing the author's desires. Similarly, she thought that jep
AS AUTHOR had the right to delete his items.
The only mistake was in thinking that authors had the right to remove
their items. My proposal, if properly worded, will clarify the consensus
of the grex members.
I cannot vote for your proposal because it ties the hands of staff without
addressing the real question.
If authors cannot remove their items, then there is no reason for staff
to think they can remove items for the authors, either.
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naftee
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response 95 of 108:
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Feb 8 20:04 UTC 2004 |
Unless they're on a power trip
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mary
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response 96 of 108:
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Feb 8 21:44 UTC 2004 |
She thought she had the right as an AUTHOR who could use CFADM power
and not worry too much about the fact other staff and board members
were already telling her to slow down.
Let's not rewrite history so soon, please.
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gelinas
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response 97 of 108:
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Feb 8 21:51 UTC 2004 |
In the case of the second deletion, you are probably right, Mary, but not in
the case of the removal of her own items. Let's not re-write history so soon,
please.
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mary
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response 98 of 108:
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Feb 8 21:58 UTC 2004 |
She couldn't delete HER items as the author. She had to invoke
superuser power to get the job done. If she hadn't been in meltdown
mode I suspect she would have asked herself why that was necessary.
Valerie herself has stated she just wanted them gone. Not much else
mattered. Of course, the only way to prove that is to republish
responses she has since scribbled. Would that be okay for me to
do?
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gull
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response 99 of 108:
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Feb 8 22:09 UTC 2004 |
At least two staff members and two board members have expressed strong
objections to this proposal. While I still feel it's important that
Grex set a formal policy on this issue, because I think without it,
we're doomed to another repeat of this whole scandal, I'm a bit hesitant
to do something that would push Grex in a direction that the staff
doesn't want to deal with. The last thing I want to be accused of is
contributing to staff member turnover. So at this point I'm
reconsidering whether to bring this to a vote. I haven't made a
decision yet.
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tod
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response 100 of 108:
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Feb 8 22:13 UTC 2004 |
Staff member turnover isn't always a bad thing.
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mary
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response 101 of 108:
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Feb 8 22:14 UTC 2004 |
My 2 cents, David. Don't. What happened here with Valerie was an
isolated, rogue event. I suspect we could go on for a very long
time before the personalities and events would come together in
such a way as to provoke a similiar episode.
Staff doesn't need more rules. I'd vote any such motion down.
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naftee
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response 102 of 108:
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Feb 8 22:58 UTC 2004 |
mary:
valerie was not "freaking out" when she deleted those baby diary items. Or
at least, all the evidence points to the contrary of that being true
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aruba
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response 103 of 108:
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Feb 8 23:29 UTC 2004 |
I agree with what Mary said.
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boltwitz
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response 104 of 108:
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Feb 8 23:41 UTC 2004 |
I agree with what aruba said, but disagree with what Mary said.
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keesan
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response 105 of 108:
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Feb 8 23:42 UTC 2004 |
Would anyone want to give authors of items the option to delete the item IF
they stated in 0 that they might do so? In other words, people could post
items that might be deleted later, but only if they gave notice to start with.
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gull
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response 106 of 108:
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Feb 9 00:13 UTC 2004 |
It just bothers me that valerie apparently broke no rules by doing what
she did. I don't really like the fact that staff can do things like
that on a whim. I guess it's "there oughtta be a law" syndrome.
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mary
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response 107 of 108:
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Feb 9 00:20 UTC 2004 |
Not quite, David. More, it's unclear as to whether rules would have
made a difference in Valerie's actions.
I think Grex needs to move on. Joe is looking for a way users can
make system policy, giving item authors guidance on what they can
and can't do. This makes more sense to me than putting handcuffs on
staff.
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