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Grex > Coop9 > #55: Motion: To allow unregistered reading of all conferences | |
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| 25 new of 367 responses total. |
adbarr
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response 81 of 367:
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Feb 21 22:01 UTC 1997 |
Gott in Himmel! You want people to read, then learn, then vote? Better
the masses should not be exposed to such corrupting influences. Those
chosen to lead and control know what is best. Trust me.
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jenna
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response 82 of 367:
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Feb 21 22:27 UTC 1997 |
I don't care if people form the web register on grex.
I don't thik anybody has a valid, unbiast arguement against that.
I DEFINTELY think newuser should remain on the web.
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robh
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response 83 of 367:
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Feb 22 00:36 UTC 1997 |
I agree.
(I sound like one of the advisors from Civilization II, don't I?)
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davel
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response 84 of 367:
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Feb 22 02:43 UTC 1997 |
SET DRIFT ON
Um. On reflection, I observe that I'm spending rather a lot of time lately
ranting at kerouac/richard. (Since he's changed his login, I haven't bothered
to filter out his responses - largely because filtering him didn't filter out
the reams of stuff other people respond to his, um, comments, & this is about
as jarring as reading it all.) At this point I don't really find myself able
to be patient with him. Nonetheless, I don't think it's right to find myself
engaged in the kind of personal comments I've been making lately; that richard
invites them is no justification IMO. It functions as one more distraction
in a discussion that's already apt to drift all over the place, and encourages
the impression anyone visiting this conference casually might have that we
consider namecalling an acceptable substitute for rational argument.
So, first of all, my apologies: to richard, to a few others onto whom my
irritation has spilled over, and to everyone reading my comments lately.
Second, since I don't seem able to rein it in very well (and, admittedly,
since keeping up with coop is getting to be a job sometimes lately), I think
I'd better take coop out of my cflist for a while. I really don't think the
lack of my comments will make that much of a difference, but if it does (and
assuming the change is for the worse), my apologies for that, too.
SET DRIFT OFF
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aruba
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response 85 of 367:
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Feb 22 04:29 UTC 1997 |
Rane, my problem with your arguments in #80 is that we *don't* keep people
out for any reason at all - we just require a little effort on their part,
that's all. A *little* effort. I also think that the analogy of Grex to a
government is not very good; the fact is that participating in Grex bears
little relationship to voting or even, I think, going to the library.
Of all the established non-virtual institutions we have, I still think the
one that Grex most resembles is a church. Churches usually welcome guests
and new members with open arms, though they often ask guests to sign a guest
book (optionally). They certainly don't turn away "the unwashed masses".
But churches generally *don't* put cameras in all the rooms of their
building and broadcast all the doings there for all people to see. Is it
because they can't afford to, or because the meetings that take place are
secret? I don't think so - I think it's because they assume that anyone
who cares to know what's going on will come to the church and find out for
himself. (And anyone who can't be bothered to show up wasn't very
interested in joining a community.)
The worst kind of churches (IMO) are the ones who broadcast their services
on TV. Why do they do that? To get money from people who otherwise
wouldn't know the church existed and would choose a different church
instead. But in the process they lose their integrity, and are forced to
care more about appearance than content. They become bigger and more
impersonal, and act more like a business than a church.
I don't want to see Grex go down that road. I think that if people want to
see what goes on here, they should show up and sign the guest book. (They
needn't use their real names.) We have plenty of people who do that already,
so apparently our existence is no secret.
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scott
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response 86 of 367:
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Feb 22 12:53 UTC 1997 |
Good analogy, Mark.
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valerie
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response 87 of 367:
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Feb 22 13:04 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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mary
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response 88 of 367:
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Feb 22 13:33 UTC 1997 |
Frankly, I'm shocked that putting up a fence to keep out the unwashed
masses would be seen as a good thing here. The people out there are no
different from the people in here except they tend not to know someone
already here.
Grex should be *seeking out* a diverse userbase. Sorry, I see this
register-before-reading hoop as an barrier intended to make it difficult
for "unaffiliated" folks to find us. And it is most definitely not what
we started out wanting to do with Grex.
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dpc
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response 89 of 367:
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Feb 22 17:05 UTC 1997 |
I see no reason why the masses, great, unwashed, or whatever, can't
at least take the trouble to run newuser to read stuff here.
Keep our semi-permeable Web membrane intact! Vote NO on Mary's
proposal!
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jenna
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response 90 of 367:
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Feb 22 19:17 UTC 1997 |
if the masses can't figure out how to do newuser, don't have
the time to not bother reading it (I've not bothered reading it
many times) then why the hell are they coming here? Grex is a bbs.
There's a million tons of information on what a bbs is. If ou want
to see this particular book, take a nametag and get in line, same
as everybody else everywhere else. People do put up fences, people
do close the doors to their houses when they leave for the night.
That's doesn't make them unwelcoming, it makes them sensible.
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richard
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response 91 of 367:
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Feb 22 20:05 UTC 1997 |
I guess the polls woill re-open on Wednesday for this vote...that willbe two
weeks....should be ian interesting vote.
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adbarr
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response 92 of 367:
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Feb 22 20:15 UTC 1997 |
Does newuser really filter anyone? I could be Tan from the Sun, and may well
become such. Why is it necessary to require the running of newuser before
anyone in East Timor reads somthing here? Maybe this is just an issue of
money and resources? If so, then it makes some sense, otherwise I am
corn-fused. Grex has been a beacon for the light of unlimited access. I would
hate to see that change. Jenna, there are people who get confused about the
anykey, but understand quickly given the right teacher. If I get impatient
here it is only due to smarty-pants that know everything and are afraid to
share. I find knowledge and skill in lots of places. Invite the world, the
world is coming anyway.
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omni
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response 93 of 367:
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Feb 22 20:34 UTC 1997 |
It takes less than 5 minutes to complete newuser. It's free, meaning no one
is going to bug you to leave a charge card number before you get access. I
think Grex as it is, is one of the best things going on the net. In other
words, if it aint broke, don't fix it.
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robh
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response 94 of 367:
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Feb 22 22:13 UTC 1997 |
jenna makes a valid point in #90 - if these theoretical potential
users can't figure out newuser, how the *^&()*^ are they supposed
to figure out PicoSpan, or even BackTalk? Honestly...
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richard
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response 95 of 367:
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Feb 22 22:14 UTC 1997 |
Indeed, if grex wasntopen access, if newuser required validation, THEN
oppositionto unregisterd reading wouldmake sens. But as is, this is onlhy
an extension of thepolicy already in place. It wouldnt changeanything.
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ladymoon
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response 96 of 367:
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Feb 22 22:44 UTC 1997 |
Well, Valerie's didn't pass. Mary, may I ask you to resign yours before it
comes to a vote? As the vote on the other one suggests, there is approximately
an even split amongst Grex's total user base that voted over this issue, and
your current proposal does nothing more than incite that, and encourage ill
will and feelings. Please, again, I ask you- unpropose this.
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richard
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response 97 of 367:
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Feb 22 22:50 UTC 1997 |
hmm...if Mary'smotionpasses and unregisteredreadingis allowed and Jenna takes
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scott
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response 98 of 367:
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Feb 22 22:56 UTC 1997 |
Perhaps some of the "no" voters would prefer an all-or-nothing solution.
We really won't know unless we vote. And I hope we don't have anyone so
thin-skinned that a vote scares them away even before we know the
outcome.
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mary
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response 99 of 367:
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Feb 23 02:25 UTC 1997 |
I believe it is in Grex's best interest to direct policy toward keeping
this a diverse and open community. Making it easy for folks to find out
more about us is important. Also, I don't at all get into the concept
that we who have found Grex are any "better" than those who have not and
that we need Newuser as a gatekeeper to keep undesirables from getting a
preview of what we're about. In fact, I see that reasoning as somewhat
abhorrent.
I really don't know how this vote will go. But I do feel it is
the right thing to take it, as worded in #0, to the members.
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nestene
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response 100 of 367:
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Feb 23 02:38 UTC 1997 |
As I stated in item 54(?), I voted against the last proposal and will vote
for this one. Selena, don't assume the silent masses agree with you just
because the haven't shouted you down.
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kaplan
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response 101 of 367:
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Feb 23 03:35 UTC 1997 |
Re 96: I hope Mary does not withdraw her proposal. I did not vote
against the previous proposal because I feel that strongly about
anonymous reading. I simply thought that proposal was too complicated
and would cause arguments and burdens on staff time beyond any benefits.
Ladymoon, your job is not to try to get Mary to withdraw her proposal.
It is to convince me and other members that we shouldn't vote for it.
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remmers
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response 102 of 367:
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Feb 23 14:43 UTC 1997 |
My sentiments are basically the same as Mary's, Peter's, and
Jeff's. I voted against the previous proposal but will vote for
this one.
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scg
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response 103 of 367:
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Feb 23 17:44 UTC 1997 |
Me too.
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srw
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response 104 of 367:
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Feb 23 18:52 UTC 1997 |
I find myself totally agreeing with Mary, and would have proposed the same
proposal she has proposed once I found out that Valerie's failed.
I take issue with the following argument, proposed by most opponents to
unregistered reading. I will select Robh's presentation of it as an example,
but I don't object any more to his version than anyone else's:
In resp:94, RobH says:
jenna makes a valid point in #90 - if these theoretical potential
users can't figure out newuser, how the *^&()*^ are they supposed
to figure out PicoSpan, or even BackTalk? Honestly...
It is not that they cannot figure out how to run newuser. That is not the
case, nor the issue, even. It is the fact that newuser represents a
psychological barrier. The barrier comes from the fact that getting an account
created is (if not here on grex) in most people minds a major big deal.
They *perceive* that the creation of an entity here, their account, is not a
step they want to take, just to be able to see what's inside. It's not that
they can't, it's that they don't want to. By allowing unregistered reading,
they will be able to see it, and some small fraction will decide that we are
worth joining. That small fraction are highly selected to become useful
members of Grex, and yet they would never have looked if an account had to
be created for that purpose. The perception is the key to understanding.
It is very easy for you who already have accounts to poo-pooh the amount of
effort required. It is a psychological barrier, not an effort.
So that is why I think unregistered reading will benefit Grex and is the right
thing to do. That and all the reasons Mary, John and others have stated.
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scg
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response 105 of 367:
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Feb 23 20:27 UTC 1997 |
I'm in support of anonymous reading largly because of my experience with other
systems out on the Net that require registration. HotWired and Electronic
Minds come to mind. Both of those are systems that I've gotten curious about
and wanted to look at, but didn't really have any reason to suspect that I
would want to come back later. I did go through their newuser programs, since
I had to to get access, but since, not knowing what was on the systems, I
didn't have much reason to think I'd ever go back I didn't bother to remember
my password. I suppose those are both systems I might have returned to after
my first visit, except that figuring out what I have to do to get my password
reset seems like too much of a hassle. And then there are all the other
systems I've happened on that required people to register before using the
system. Generally it seems like more bother than it's worth when I don't know
what's there, although who knows, I might have found some other systems I
liked if I hadn't had to go through the hassle of registereing before I could
find out what I was registering for.
In the case of Grex, I think unregistered reading would be a very good thing.
I think we all agree (except maybe Richard) that anybody who wants to become
a regular user should register. The question, though, is how people should
find out that Grex is something they want to use, instead of going off to some
other system. Typically now, people find out about Grex from friends, which
is fine, but it certainly doesn't get us a very diverse group of people. Once
people are told by a friend that Grex is something they should want to try,
filling out newuser isn't much effort at all. What I'm hoping with
unregistered reading is that people who don't have a clue what Grex is, or
why they should want to be here, will be able to find out what we are and
decide for themselves whether to join us.
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