response 81 of 194:

Oct 16 01:25 UTC 1999

We listen to records through a hole in the wall called the kitchen door,
actually it has to pass through two doors and around three corners.  I think
the high notes probably get somewhat attenuated.  Maybe I should turn up the
treble?
        Just heard Handel's Dixit Dominus.  Did Handel write any bad music?
        Aren't two ears also two holes in the wall?

response 83 of 194:

Oct 16 12:17 UTC 1999

I can't think of a single piece of "program music"
that I listen to solely because of a story line.  
If the music itself is bad, it wouldn't matter to 
me that it's based on a great story.  If the music 
is good, it wouldn't matter that it's based on a 
silly story, either.  Anyway, I don't think it's
possible for music alone to tell a story.  There
have to be words for that.  

Re movie music, some of it is quite good.  Some of
it is shamelessly imitative.  Bill Conti, who wrote
the famous "Rocky" theme, steals from serious 
composers right and left.  He stole the music for 
"Victory" from Shostakovich's 5th symphony.  He stole
the soul-lifting main theme for "The Right Stuff" 
from Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto.  Sometimes a film
composer will borrow a style from another composer.
A good example is the music John Williams wrote for
the celebrated forest battle in Return of the Jedi;
it sounds exactly like a scherzo Prokofiev might've
writen for one of his symphonies or ballets.  In fact,
if there was a market for elaborate musical parodies,
John Williams would corner it.

response 85 of 194:

Oct 17 13:04 UTC 1999

Re program music:

There are some excellent tone poems that are
supposedly based on more or less detailed programs.
Richard Strauss perfected the genre.  Most of his
music grates on my nerves so cruelly that I can't
get much enjoyment out of it, though.  Dvorak wrote
a series of very engaging tone poems.  Sibelius
composed some beautiful music under this heading.
The Swan of Tuonela and Tapiola are two of my
favorites.  In modern times, we've seen some tone
poems in which either there is no program or else
the composer ain't talkin'.  Barber's Fadograph of
a Yestern Scene and his three Essays are examples
of this.  One programmatic piece that I find
breathtaking but that you probably wouldn't have
much use for, keesan, is Elliott Carter's Concerto
for Orchestra, which he based on St John Perse's
poem "Vents" ("Winds").  There are examples all
over the place.  As always, find what you love and
and love it.

response 87 of 194:

Oct 18 02:57 UTC 1999

I found some more nice program music by Rimsky-Korsakoff, Mussorgsky, Borodin
and Glinka.  At least the names of the pieces sound like program music.
I will give Smetana a try.  Supposedly later Richard Strauss was less awful.
Also listened to 1812 Overture and Beethoven's Wellington's Sieg - probably
supposed to be shooting but I heard fireworks.  (Re the 1812, Jim thought he
recognized the tune.  I said it was Chaikovsky.  Jim said Chaikovsky must have
stolen the tune from the 1812 Overture.  Jim is not good at this, he was
serious.  But he likes the same music I do despite a memory problem).
Francesca da Rimini, also by Chaikovsky, I did not find interesting.  It seems
not to make much sense without the story line from Dante.  Am I wrong?

Are songs (vocal) considered program music?  How about songs without words?

Jim recognized Stranger in Paradise in one classical piece played on the radio
this afternoon - can anyone name it?  'Take my hand, I'm a stranger in
paradise.'  (For someone who claims to have a memory problem he can recall
an awful lot of lyrics).  He thinks several other melodies from that same
piece were made into popular songs.

"The bear went over the mountain" was in a piece mentioned above-which?
What is the original tune called?

response 89 of 194:

Oct 18 14:03 UTC 1999

Moussorgsky.

"Stranger in Paradise," and all the other music
in the musical "Kismet," is based on Borodin.

I love Smetana's Moldau.  The main theme eventually
became "Hatikvah," the Israeli national anthem.

response 91 of 194:

Oct 20 18:46 UTC 1999

Re resp:89 - Hm, guess I didn't know that about "Kismet."
Kind of like "Carmen Jones", where the music is Bizet but
the words are Oscar Hammerstein II.

response 93 of 194:

Oct 27 02:01 UTC 1999

I don't understand why there is often a stigma attached to program music. 
Is it considered less serious than "pure" music?  Many of my favorite pieces
are considered program music.  Does that mean that I have bad musical taste?

And, on a side note, what is it about Richard Strauss that seems to bother
several people here?  Strauss isn't one of my favorite composers, but I don't
object to his music and there are some pieces that I particularly like, such
as Death and Transfiguration, and Don Quixote.  (I enjoy his horn music, too,
but that sounds so different from his tone poems that I don't think it falls
into the same category).

response 95 of 194:

Oct 27 17:12 UTC 1999

I always had the understanding that "program music" was music created for its
own merit, not associated with an opera, symphony, concerto, etc.  (Although
a symphony itself could be considered program music, I guess.)  If that
understanding is correct, I don't see what could be more "serious" than
program music.

response 97 of 194:

Oct 27 20:59 UTC 1999

Ja, OK.  But what does "serious" have to do about it?

response 99 of 194:

Nov 3 18:04 UTC 1999

From e-webster:
program music   Function: noun   Date: 1879
: music intended to suggest a sequence of images or incidents

So my "understanding" of program music was wrong, exactly opposite.
So yes, I could see how some "snob types" might assert that music 
written to tell or support a story is less serious than music written 
for its own sake.  But what's the point of such an assertion?  Take 
Dvorak's "New World" symphony:  Yes, it's a symphony in form, but its 
melodic elements are impressions of what he heard visiting the USA.
Now those melodies might or might not have been taken from folk music 
that told a story.  But it shows that to write serious music you need 
not have it burst forth from some "fountain of seriousness".  
Tchaikovsky's Finale of his 4th symphony builds on a melody based on a 
Russian folk tune.  Well, why the heck not?!

response 101 of 194:

Nov 9 02:26 UTC 1999

There's really something of a continuum between program music and 
abstract music.  Using a folk tune (like Tchaikovsky), or something that 
sounds like a folk tune but isn't (like Dvorak's New World), doesn't 
make a piece program music, though it may make it national music.  Some 
supposedly abstract works have "secret" programs that the composer had 
in mind but that he didn't intend listeners to know about: that's the 
case for all of Tchaikovsky's major symphonies (nos. 4-6).  Then there 
are people who, preferring program music and having a hard time treating 
abstract music as abstract, have written their own programs, sometimes 
attributing them to the composer.  The story that the theme of 
Beethoven's Fifth is "Fate knocking at the door" is an example of that. 
There was a lot of this fake program-writing going on in the 19th 
century, and that, more than anything else, is what gave program music a 
bad name among abstract-music lovers.

response 103 of 194:

Nov 9 12:41 UTC 1999

Not only is it possible to superimpose a 
program on an abstract work, it's also 
possible to make up a new program for music 
that already has one.  Disney did that in 
Fantasia, where, for example, music for a 
ballet about a ritual sacrifice in pagan 
Russia becomes the accompaniment to a 
kindergarten history of life on earth up to 
the extinction of the dinosaurs.  I think 
program music was generally regarded as a 
category of music neither good nor bad in 
itself until those cherubs' asses morphed 
into pink love-hearts during Beethoven's 6th 
in Fantasia.  It takes artistic integrity 
and a real effort of will to look at that 
and say, "Nevertheless . . ."

response 105 of 194:

Nov 20 16:20 UTC 1999

(Actually, the Fantasia use of the music from the Rite of Spring wasn't as
ridiculous as it sounds, since IIRC -- it's been a while since I've seen
it -- the music they use is mostly "nature waking itself up" rather than
dancing or sacrifice)

(And I think the French are represented by the French song whose tune was
borrowed for "The Bear Went Over the Mountain," if that makes any sort of
difference)