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| Author |
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| 25 new of 191 responses total. |
keesan
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response 80 of 191:
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Feb 4 12:00 UTC 2013 |
Residential bathrooms do not require floor drains but they protect the floor
and the ceiling below. Bathtubs and toilets can overflow, wet people get the
floor wet, the plumbing can leak. In my apartment the ceiling kept raining
and then falling down because of the bathroom overhead. (Part of the problem
was it was built with tub but no shower and the tenants stuck a plastic
shower gadget on the faucet which they also used to fill the tub, and it would
turn itself upside down or jump out and water the floor).
The downstairs bathroom floor will slope so that the whole room can be used
as a shower by someone who cannot manage the clawfoot tub.
The city made us use larger size drainpipe upstairs because of the floor drain
even though it was unlikely to carry much water unless the toilet clogged,
in which case the toilet was not going to put much water down the drain.
Never mind that toilet, tub, sink and floor drain would not be used at the
same time, the plumbing has to carry it all in theory.
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keesan
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response 81 of 191:
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Feb 4 17:29 UTC 2013 |
An ebay seller has line-voltage SP heat only thermostats for $0.99 plus
shipping. $3.60 for the first, actual postage if you get five.
1500W bathroom heater $80 with free shipping. His shipping cost is $13 for
one and $9 for a second shipped at the same time. I save $4.
We got four water heater timers for $5 each plus $5 shipping (for all, not
one). It pays to buy in bulk - you save a lot on shipping.
I need to choose heaters for the two bigger rooms(160 sq ft). Heatloss
calculations show they need 450W to stay 70F warmer than outside. Since Iwill
be turning heat down from 11 am to 7 pm (peak rate, time of day meter) I need
something larger - probably 1250 but 750 is half the price and might work as
well, esp. in the kitchen since cooking will heat it up fast. Upstairs I need
100-200W for smaller rooms and could use 500W (the hydronic ones do not come
smaller at ebay prices).
Downstairs if I want it hotter in a hurry I can turn on the 1500W bathroom
heater, which is more than needed for the whole downstairs.
Decisions, decisions. I can get the 750 and use it upstairs if it is not
enough for the kitchen. My mother's kitchen came with no heat at all. The
refrigerator will add some heat too. (How many watts?).
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rcurl
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response 82 of 191:
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Feb 4 21:08 UTC 2013 |
Re #80: You have points there. We had a connection to the toilet tank in
a second floor bathroom fail while we were away. The water was drainig
from the kitchen ceiling below when we got home. (It was falling onto
the top of a microwave above the stove. The man that came to repair the
ceiling turned on the microwave before I could stop him. It made a
sizzling noise and hasn't worked since. They went out and bought us a
counter-top microwave.)
I'm not sure a floor drain would have helped, unless the floor also had
a pan raised around the edge. The water was squirting right at the wall
behind the toilet tank, and was running down at the juncture between the
floor and the wall. There was no flooding of the bathroom floor away
from the toilet.
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keesan
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response 83 of 191:
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Feb 4 22:15 UTC 2013 |
We will wrap a waterproof membrane partway up the wall to prevent water going
between floor and wall.
Today I bought two bathroom wall heaters (1500 watts, can adjust jumpers for
750, 375, etc.) with thermostats, and one 750W electric hydronic baseboard
heater (cheaper than a 500 today at ebay). We planned out the 14-3 and
junction box for smoke alarms on main floor and cellar then started planning
how to have two accessible junction boxes under the stairs. One is 2 1/8"
deep and 4.5" wide/high, the other 1.5" deep and 4x4", and they have to go
on the same board so we need to replace the latter with one like the former
or get two 4x4x2". Box size depends on number of wires going in.
Add up all the blacks and white, add one for grounds, multiply by 2 for cubic
inches. For 6 wires we need 26 cu inches, for 5 wires 22 cu inches. 6 wires
need grey wire nuts (so do 5). The biggest box is over 40 cu inches, a
standard box only 24 cu inches, and 4x4x2 is 32" and will do for both. We
also need to get a box for the water heater timer relay on the same board.
If the boxes are different widths it makes it harder to cut square holes in
the plywood or cement board or drywall that will cover the whole wall except
for the metal covers over the junction boxes, which must be accessible, so
we want them the same width if possible (and the same depth so we don't need
to put a 5/8" spacer behind one). We put in the board then decided to move
it to another bay where things are easier to wire. Everything takes forever.
To put the 14-3 wires in for the smoke alarms we had to unwire a light fixture
and a motion sensor so we could make the holes larger in the joists. Too many
holes weakens the joists. Those are back together and we pulled the 14-3
smoke alarm wires, and one 14-3 wire from light switch box to one light, and
my friend is wiring between switches now. First we talked about where to put
the switch - decided on next to bathroom door opposite hinge side like all
the others though it requires more holes and wire and pulling. Then one more
wire from that switch (pair of 3-ways in both cases) to the last light which
will be on the wall since the ceiling is too complicated to wire through (more
later on this - soundproof construction).
After lunch (5:30) we can drill the holes to the second light, then put up
the round wiremold boxes for 2 smoke alarms and 2 light fixtures, and the
smoke alarms themselves and some temporary light fixtures but nothing gets
turned on yet because there is the problem of redoing the two junction boxes
for downstairs lighting and smoke alarms (they have tobe on the same circuit
so if power goes out you know the smoke alarms will not work because the
lights will also be out). And one more smoke alarm to the cellar (they are
required in basements) where the HRV will eventually go, and one upstairs
(there will be more eventually). Tomorrow maybe the junction boxes.
For a break we shovel snow.
Progress on the legal front. Details eventually.
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keesan
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response 84 of 191:
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Feb 5 14:38 UTC 2013 |
My heaters are 'in the mail' and should arrive by Friday. Wikipedia has lots
of info on thermostats. Mechanical, electronic, digital, programmable....
Relays click, TRIACs do not. Some can learn to turn the heat on in advance
so it will reach a certain temperature by 7 am. The cheaper ones are set to
go up and down once a day every day of the week, or some can go up and down
twice in a day (four periods). Cheaper ones let you set two temps, others
several. Next in price are 5-2 (different schedule on weekends) then 7-day
(different every day). Time of day rates are peak M-F 11 am to 7 pm, so a
5-2 would let me have it warm all weekend (but I like it cold at night),
and on weekdays heat from 7-11 am and 7-11 pm. In 8 hours the temp won't drop
much in that house. I might use a time-of-day control on the water heater
too so I (or future owner) could have the water heating only during off peak
hours. In summer I would only turn it on for 10-15 min before a shower.
Some thermostats go 40-80, or 45-75, others LO COMFORT ZONE HIGH. One comes
with a choice of F or C plates. One connects to the internet and monitors
outside temperature so it knows when to start heating in advance.
The more expensive ones hold the temperature steadier. I am getting used to
working at 43-48F and a 5F swing is no big deal. Anything over 50 seems really
tropical. Three people, a laptop computer, and a drill bring the temperature
up a few degrees over the day. If we turn on all the new lights with their
100W halogen bulbs, that is 700W.
The programmable ones are about $40 and up at Amazon.com, $47 at Ace Hardware,
and variable at ebay (this week $50 or more, sometimes $20 or so).
Today my builder friend is draining someone's water heater. She says it does
not give enough hot water. Sediment can fill it up, also it prevents the
anode from protecting the bottom of the tank, and in gas models it insulates
the water from the heat. Even city water has scale.
We are going into town to pick up evidence, and this
afternoon more wiring. We ran short of 14-3 yesterday and need to connect
two switch boxes then wire up two double 3-way switches, two lights
(temporary, or wait until I get the real ones tomorrow if the neighbor who
was going with us to IKEA is not still sick), two smoke alarms and maybe a
third one in the cellar, then two new junction boxes on a board in a different
location at the proper depth to come out even with 1/2" wallboard (then
continue running wires upstairs for lights, smoke alarms....., then downstairs
heat when the heaters arrive.....). Wiring could be done in 2-3 weeks?
I am told plumbing requires fewer decisions (and holes) but you need to
get them right the first time.
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keesan
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response 85 of 191:
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Feb 5 23:25 UTC 2013 |
Got lots of evidence with more to come, then celebrated with an hour at the
archeology museum looking at door hardware from Pompeii.
We are wiring two pairs of 3-way light switches (labelled at various times
and places blue, yellow, white, black - this could be a comedy of errors)
and hope to get the actual fixtures tomorrow to test them with - $10 IKEA
basic ceiling spotlights without shades. They come with 3 35W halogen GU10
bulbs (21 of them will generate a lot of heat) and can be replaced with 3W
LED ($3) or 9W LED (5)- or cheaper if I want to bother bidding.
The water heater should have a minute timer that only works when a time-of-day
timer is ON. If we use the same relay for that and the space heaters, they
can be set to always be OFF from 11 am to 7 pm, then to go to the thermostated
temperature at other times, using cheap 24V non-programmable timers for the
heaters, and the 110V timer for the water heater with possibly a different
relay (110V relay) if someone can figure this out. Some timers let you set
things to be on all weekend (off-peak rate). I don't know how we can use 24V
thermostats and also a 110V timer with the same relay but then I don't exactly
know what a relay is other than a little box with screws and wires.
If things are set up right, I just set the timer to OFF at night and in
mid-day, let the temperature fall for 8 hours (2-3 deg F?), and let the water
heater stop heating. In non-heating weather, I leave it all OFF and only turn
on the water heater as needed. This might be easier than the HRV to set up.
Maybe only run the HRV during off-peak hours and put it on the second meter
too, except the outside air is coldest then. I would only use it during
heating season.
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keesan
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response 86 of 191:
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Feb 6 03:50 UTC 2013 |
Turns out we already have two of the non-electronic daily timers. One is
plug-in (you plug it into the wall and plug something into it) and set it to
go on and off once a day. It is designed for a calcinator (incinerator?) and
is about 3" high, 4" wide, and twice as long, and looks maybe 50s. They still
make these in smaller footprints. The other is much larger and can be set
to go on and off at various times each day of the week. These are also made
smaller, and both types come plug-in or wire-in for use with lights or water
heaters or other things that are either always off/off or have their own
thermostats (such as portable space heaters or air conditioners).
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keesan
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response 87 of 191:
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Feb 6 10:42 UTC 2013 |
I was able to read tsty's (filtered) response offering wiring help when I
extracted this item to a file and emailed him at grex. tsty - if you don't
read your grex mail email me your current email address to my grex mail.
Grex is awfully slow again today.
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keesan
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response 88 of 191:
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Feb 6 23:00 UTC 2013 |
My architect friend suggested if I am planning to turn off the water heater
from 11-7 every day that I get one with 6" insulation so the water will only
cool of 1 degree F. I responded that I wanted it to put heat into the house
for 8 hours while the heaters are turned off, and that I don't mind the water
temp going down from 90 to 85 because I don't shower in the middle of the day
anyway and if I minded I could set it to 95 or 100 to start with.
I then called DTE and talked to a very interested customer service rep in
Grand Rapids who had never heard of the time-of-day space conditioning and/or
water heating rate but gave me all the information. It is about 6.5 cents/kwh
during heating season (slightly less off peak then) and about the same in the
summer (May-Oct?) during offpeak but much higher onpeak. I won't be heating
in the summer, and will turn off the water heater and just run it for 10 min
to shower after 7 pm. The rep wanted to know all about this and said it made
his day that someone was that interested and knowledgeable. Usually people
just call to complain about their high electric bills. He got his water bill
down from 90 to 30/month by fixing the washer hose, and has a perfect baby
and a not so perfect mother in law, and may come see the house some day.
The HRV can go on either meter as long as I don't run it in the summer from
11-7 (I don't generate steam then since I cook outside and shower after dark).
Senior citizen rate is also about 6.6 cents/KWh if you don't go over 10/day,
so I could put it on the regular meter if I wanted to use it in the summer
daytime. There is much more space on the time of day meter and it needs a
double slot for 240V (25W).
My 750W hydronic baseboard heater arrived and I won Jim a 1250W ceiling heater
(round) for $56 with shipping that usually sells for $60-65 (double that at
a real store). IKEA got postponed a day so I am sorting out FOIA papers and
finding a lot of fraud to document. I have lots of documentation. Sort of
like a very large crossword puzzle with some wrong clues.
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jep
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response 89 of 191:
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Feb 7 00:45 UTC 2013 |
Have you considered a tankless water heater, Sindi?
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keesan
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response 90 of 191:
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Feb 7 01:50 UTC 2013 |
I considered a tankless water heater but they require far more amps than a
tank type to run, and you can't use just a small amount of hot water (minimum
is about 3/4 gal a minute), and even though I only want about 1/2 gal/min of
warm water for a shower the city would make me put in something large enough
to provide 2 gal/min of hot water to two showers and three sinks. If I got
one sized for one shower at the required 2 gpm it would fill a bath in 10
minutes. The tank type are also cheaper and will keep the bathroom warm
during peak hours in winter. Not that there is much difference in electric
cost during peak and nonpeak hours in winter.
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jep
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response 91 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:04 UTC 2013 |
There are tankless water heaters that are at the point of usage; at the
sink or the shower. $228 at Home Depot. 240 volts, 54 amps; that's a
lot of watts but not so much if you only use it for 10 minutes per day.
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keesan
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response 92 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:38 UTC 2013 |
I am required to have hot water at ALL points of use, not just one.
A 30 gal tank-type water heater used for 10 min/day uses 20A of electricity
(with 4500W elements, 240V) and a 30A breaker with No. 10 wire.
Our second electric panel is 100A. A tankless heater would need to provide
at least 5 gal/min of hot water - how many does the Home Depot 54A one
provide? The tank-type heaters lose heat to the surroundings but if you only
leave them on during heating season, or turn them on for 10 min prior to use
and then use up all the hot water, they don't waste much. If you heat up the
whole tank it will cool off in a day or so in a cold basement. If you run
them for 10 min only the top 1/3 heats up (top element heats), which would
be about 10 gal of water at shower temperature.
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tod
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response 93 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:43 UTC 2013 |
I have a tankless water heater. It gives me no respect I tell ya.
Seriously though, it's wonderful. I wouldn't recommend it for low
occupancy homes, though.
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keesan
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response 94 of 191:
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Feb 7 04:58 UTC 2013 |
What is a low occupancy home?
The Home Depot Tempra 12 whole-house model delivers 2.3 gpm (at 107F?) and
is recommended for 1 bathroom in warm climates. $469, 60A breaker at 240V.
A standard water heater is about $200. 1/6 hour x 6.2 cents/kWh x 4.5KW is
about 5 cents per shower. Even if I took a shower every day, that comes to
365 x .05 = about $20/year for hot water. The payback for a tankless heater
would be more than 10 years if it saved 100% of lost heat, or 50 years saving
20% which is claimed to be typical savings. I doubt either type would last
that many years. The relay and timers to turn on the water heater for 10 min
at a time are cheap ($5 for a timer, $20 at most for a relay). It does waste
a bit more space in the bathroom to have a tank-type heater and they need to
be drained every few years to remove sediment. If I never took a bath, and
did not have to meet code, I could get a smaller cheaper model tankless that
delivered .5 gal per minute of water at 40 degrees F temperature rise.
In the summer I don't really need a water heater. Last summer I used a
gallon of warm water from a black rainbarrel to wash with.
Stand in tub, wash with a washcloth, rinse with a cup. I learned to bathe
out of a bucket in Macedonia (and to save the excess for laundry). For
washing hair, 2 gal total is better. A warm room helps.
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jep
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response 95 of 191:
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Feb 7 05:09 UTC 2013 |
I'm not going to argue it, Sindi. If you want to know more, I am sure
you can find out.
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rcurl
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response 96 of 191:
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Feb 7 05:16 UTC 2013 |
A gas heated water heater is much less expensive to operate than an
electric heated water heater.
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keesan
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response 97 of 191:
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Feb 7 10:52 UTC 2013 |
I did a lot of research on tankless water heaters and decided it made more
sense for me to use a tank-type and leave it off during non-heating season.
See http://waterheatertimer.org. They list suggested brands of relay and
timer, where to buy them, and how to wire them, which also eliminates standby
losses and does not require a larger electric service.
A gas water heater requires, first, that you pay the gas company $10.50/month
service, which is more than I would spend on heating water electrically.
It also requires a chimney or equivalent, and gas line piping and probably
some charge for cooking up to gas.
Electricity 3412 BTU per KWh at 6.2 cents/KWh. 1000 BTU about 2 cents.
4.500 Kwatts x 1/6 hour x 6.2 cents/KWH x 30 days = $4.50/month for
a daily shower. Plus $2/month customer charge (which I am paying
anyway for heat half the year) to get the lower rate. $6.50.
Gas 28 cents/100 cubic feet, 1029 BTU per cubic foot.
.28 cents for 1029 BTU. Plus $10.50/month customer charge.
My numbers are probably off, since other people's calculations show electric
hot water costing 1.5 times as much as gas ($550 vs $400/year). If gas costs a
third as much. $1.50/month for a daily shower (assuming you could turn on
the gas water heater and heat only the top third of the tank, which is unlikely
since the burner is at the bottom), plus $10.50/month customer charge.
If I were heating water with gas, a tankless heater would make sense.
The typical American family of three is said to use about 65 gal/day of
hot water at 135 deg F. I might use as much as 5 showering in the summer
every day (1/2 gpm for 10 minutes) at 87 deg F. In winter I shower
less often (don't get sweaty). So the main cost of hot water would be
standby losses, which I won't have except during heating season. If the
bathroom gets too warm I will turn off the water heater.
A tankless water heater would require me to use at least 1/2 gpm (the
whole-house ones require about 2/3 gpm) which is much more than I would
want for washing dishes. In summer I use cold water, in winter tepid,
which is better supplied by a tank-type. I wash laundry in cold water.
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tod
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response 98 of 191:
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Feb 7 17:16 UTC 2013 |
Leaving your water tank "off" will breed bacteria. It's a very bad idea.
You do dishes in cold water?
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jep
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response 99 of 191:
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Feb 7 17:45 UTC 2013 |
I would think it should be fine to wash dishes in cold water if you use a
rinse with bleach (or another chemical) to kill the bacteria.
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slynne
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response 100 of 191:
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Feb 7 17:58 UTC 2013 |
resp:99 FWIW, very few people who wash dishes by hand use water that is
hot enough to kill bacteria. The warm water is mostly for comfort but
also to help break up the grease. I wash dishes in cold water on hot
summer days with no ill effects with just regular old dish soap.
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nharmon
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response 101 of 191:
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Feb 7 18:37 UTC 2013 |
A hot water tank isn't like a pipe where you can be reasonably sure all
of the water is being recycled. As a result, you have to be careful
about bacterial growth. Legionella is the bacteria responsible for
Legionnaires' disease, and here is its temperature disinfection:
* 70 to 80 C (158 to 176 F): Disinfection range
* At 66 C (151 F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
* At 60 C (140 F): Legionellae die within 32 minutes
* At 55 C (131 F): Legionellae die within 5 to 6 hours
* Above 50 C (122 F): They can survive but do not multiply
* 35 to 46 C (95 to 115 F): Ideal growth range
* 20 to 50 C (68 to 122 F): Legionellae growth range
* Below 20 C (68 F): Legionellae can survive but are dormant
I would not leave my hot water heater set lower than 140 F, unless I
was going to be away for an extended period of time. And then I would
reset it when I returned and let the water run for a while before using.
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slynne
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response 102 of 191:
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Feb 7 19:51 UTC 2013 |
It is a bad idea to keep a hot water heater above 120F though due to
burns but I might try raising mine to 131F just in case.
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rcurl
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response 103 of 191:
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Feb 7 20:12 UTC 2013 |
Electric power also has a service charge and surcharges, which exceed in
sum the gas service charge. Also, electric heating is also more
expensive than gas heating for the house. I will agree that if you lower
house temperature enough you can lower your personal electric heating
bill below using gas at a bigher comfort temperature.
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tod
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response 104 of 191:
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Feb 7 20:33 UTC 2013 |
In Seattle, electric baseboard heat was more economical than blown
gas heat.
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