|
Grex > Coop11 > #249: Internet Connectivity Revisited |  |
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 176 responses total. |
aruba
|
|
response 76 of 176:
| 
May 26 21:08 UTC 2001 |
Re #72: Thanks for the correction, Steve. If Covad goes under and we
couldn't connect to CoreComm, would we still be obligated to pay out our
CoreComm contract? I'm guessing no, because we don't pay anything directly
to Covad, only to CoreComm.
|
scg
|
|
response 77 of 176:
|
May 26 21:21 UTC 2001 |
Most colo spaces I've been in have a table or two available to pull up and
put the laptop being used as a console on while doing work. For the most
part, though, it makes a lot more sense for the console to be something
remotely accessable, so that people don't have to go on site whenever
console access is needed. There are plenty of other solutions to
documentation storage rather than having it in peoples' heads, and Grex
certainly wouldn't be the first organization to run into such issues.
Backups shouldn't be onsite, although I suppose a colo arrangement where
somebody else was swapping tapes might increase the likelyhood that they
could be stored locally.
Perhaps an office somewhere is useful for shared work on new hardware. When
is the last time that was done? When is the next time it's planned? Perhaps
some cheap office space could be found when needed, or the Pumpkin could be
used for that purpose if it's considered worth spending money on.
Alternatively, setting up the new hardware somewhere with a remote console
would satisfy most of the software installation needs.
Items six and seven on your list would become irrellevant. Item five is
certainly something that could be stored somewhere other than an office.
Anyhow, the objections to doing anything about Grex's situation are getting
old. Grex's current Net connectivity will go away in a hurry if Covad goes
out of business, and there will be no quick way to replace it. Computer and
networking equipment can and does catch on fire, often even continuing to
function while burning, such that an environment like the Pumpkin with nobody
around and no fire suppression system, the Pumpkin and its contents could
disappear quickly without warning. The extremely hot conditions in that
room, and all the dust and loose papers that the room is full of, don't help
Grex's chances there. We've now had one serious system problem directly
attributable to the dust, and who knows how many of our past problems have
been caused by the temperature. Do you have any other suggestions for how
to solve these problems, especially that of network connectivity?
My strong impression is that nobody is doing any thinking about the network
connectivity issue. The impression I've gotten from the rest of the staff
when there have been network connectivity problems recently is that it's seen
as my problem, and even getting somebody else to make a phone call to Grex's
ISP took weeks. I live 2300 miles away. There is nothing I can do for Grex
from this distance concerning network connectivity. Grex is very low on my
priority list at this point, and I'm certainly not going to get on a plane
to go deal with it, nor am I interested in continuing to be seen as
responsible for something I don't have access to. Somebody else needs to
take this over and become concerned about it, if Grex is going to last. If
Grex goes away or drops off the Net, I'll be sad, but I'll probably find more
interesting things to do with my time. There's nothing I can do from this
distance to save it.
|
scg
|
|
response 78 of 176:
|
May 26 21:21 UTC 2001 |
(Mark slipped in. I'm not a lawyer, but I assume that if CoreComm is no
longer providing the service, you no longer have to pay for the service)
|
aruba
|
|
response 79 of 176:
|
May 26 21:31 UTC 2001 |
I cleaned up the loose papers in the Pumpkin today, and I'll vacuum
tomorrow.
|
scg
|
|
response 80 of 176:
|
May 26 21:36 UTC 2001 |
Thanks.
|
devnull
|
|
response 81 of 176:
|
May 27 01:30 UTC 2001 |
Re #75: I would expect that if there's new hardware being set up,
software work could probably be done by it being put on a ``barrowed''
net connection while it's being set up.
Having the console of a machine be remotely accessible and having
remote powercycling is nice regardless of whether you're in colo.
(I've set up remote powercycling and console access for hardware both
at the FSF's main office in Boston, and for a machine they have in
colo; at 9PM, when everyone in the office has gone home, it might as
well be in colo as far as I'm concerned, not wanting to spend 45
minutes each way to go into the office.) Indeed, if a laptop were
found that had two serial ports and could have an ethernet port
installed, that might be ideal for use for a console for grex.
Re #77: I haven't found tables being really available at either of the
colo places I've dealt with installing hardware at, but I'm sure this
varies.
I am curious what the costs are of all the problems that mdw talks
about vs the savings in rent.
Whether backups can be done by the colo facility depends on the colo
facility. Many see backups as a premium service they can sell to make
more money. Global NAPS certainly doesn't want to do backups for
their customers, and I don't remember Level 3 being especially anxious
to run your backups for you, although I'm not sure I was paying enough
attention.
Is there any useful colo around Ann Arbor? If the price of colo in
Chicago was right, would it be worth the trip?
|
gull
|
|
response 82 of 176:
|
May 27 17:37 UTC 2001 |
Detroit Free Press, Saturday, May 26, 2001.
(Trimmed a bit for brevity.)
Michigan may lose ailing DSL link
Jeff Bennett, Free Press Business Writer
Michiganders are in danger of losng one of few choices for high-speed
Internet service after auditors of Covad Communications warned Friday that
it is in serious financial trouble.
The Santa Clara, Calif.-based company is the third-largest high-speed
Internet access provider in Michigan.
Customers connect to the Covad network when they purchase Internet service
through Big Net Inc. of Pontiac. It supplies high-speed Internet service to
12,000 Michigan residents and businesses through DSL, or digital subscriber
telephone lines.
But Covad reported a fourth quarter loss of $907.5 million Friday, sending
its stock down 19.8 percent to close at $1.01.
The DSL network blamed its financial woes on partners that sold its service
but couldn't pay their bills, and technical problems caused by rapid growth.
If Covad folds, it would be another blow to Michigan, which is trying to
foster the expansion of broadband services in order to meet business
demands.
In April, 2,500 to 5,000 Michigan customers were left in high-speed limbo
after NorthPoint Communciations pulled the plug on its 100,000 mostly
business customers nationwide.
...
Duane Rao, founder of Big Net, said he's trying to connect any new customers
who buy Internet service from his company to another DSL network.
Big Net's top choice for that is SBC Communications, the San Antonio-based
telecommunications giant that owns Ameritech, Michigan's biggest local phone
company.
SBC already owns 6 percent of Covad, and Rao would like to see it buy the
rest of the company and pick up service for all his existing customers.
...
If that does not happen and Covad goes bankrupt, Rao said he is sure another
company would step in to maintain service for his customers. But that could
mean changes in hardware or Internet addresses for customers.
"We are waiting to see what happens but we are not going to be another
NorthPoint," Rao said. "The big difference between NorthPoint and Covad is
that Covad has 350,000 customers nationwide."
That makes Covad more likely to be bought and not just shut down, like
Northpoint.
SBC officials could not be reached for comment.
If the company buys Covad, it would leave the state with two major networks
providing high-speed Internet service. They would be:
- SBC, whose DSL service would be sold through Ameritech, Qwest
Communications, and Big Net.
- Comcast, which sells high-speed access over its cable systems.
|
gull
|
|
response 83 of 176:
|
May 27 17:39 UTC 2001 |
Sounds like it's time to seriously consider colocation, or switching to
Ameritech for DSL. Those would appear to be the only choices. The company
I work for recently ordered an SDSL line from Ameritech (not for its main
connectivity, but for a project at another site.) I can find out from my
boss what the rate is, but it's for a single machine so it probably wouldn't
be directly applicable to Grex's situation.
|
scg
|
|
response 84 of 176:
|
May 27 20:03 UTC 2001 |
(In fairness to Michigan, Covad's problems have nothing to do with Michigan,
and certainly won't hit Michigan any harder than they hit anywhere else. The
slant of the Free Press article is odd.)
|
gull
|
|
response 85 of 176:
|
May 28 01:41 UTC 2001 |
I thought so too. I think the point they're trying to make is that it's a
bit of a blow considering that Michigan is struggling to attract hi-tech
industries, and considering that there are so few network providers here.
|
rksjr
|
|
response 86 of 176:
|
Jun 3 01:57 UTC 2001 |
What would be the ramifictions of joining with other Covad
customers to form a "not-for-profit DSL provider co-op"?
If the management of Covad could be persuaded to provide
Grex with Covad's DSL customer list, then inquiries could be
sent to Covad's DSL customers asking if they would be
willing to join together in forming a "not-for-profit DSL
co-op".
If there are enough positive responses from the inquiries
sent to the customers of Covad, then each prospective co-op
member would buy one "co-op share" of the prospective DSL
co-op, and then the accumulated funds would be used to buy
Covad's DSL operation.
Conceivably the expense of participating with other
customers of Covad in the purchase and running of Covad's
DSL operation as a co-op, could be considerably less than
what Grex is presently paying indirectly to Covad for DSL
service, given that Covad's stock price has dipped as low as
it has. [1]
Electric power co-ops are surviving [2,3]; why couldn't a
DSL co-op thrive?
I don't know anything about establishing and/or running a
DSL provider co-op, but if any other Grexers do, then here
is your opportunity.
Notes
[Note 1.]
"...Covad stock is down to $1.03/share, down 98%
from its 52-week peak." [from response #17 by (krj);
Apr 7, 2001; source cited:
http://www.upside.com/Rex_Crum/3ac9e9aa30d.html]
[Note 2.]
[Periodical article title:] Great service. (includes
related article) (electric cooperatives) Mark Janick.
Electrical World, Jan-Feb 2001 v215 i1 p47(3).
[online database:] InfoTrac EF
[InfoTrac online abstract:]
Issues concerning the standard of services provided
by electric cooperatives are discussed. It is
emphasized that electric cooperatives offer better
protection of their customers' interests. Several
examples of cooperatives are used to prove the benefits
of the industry.
[Note 3.]
To provide a balanced view regarding the success of
electric co-operatives, I am including a brief excerpt of
an article which is somewhat pessimistic regarding the
future of rural electric co-operatives:
[Article title:] Cross-country co-operation. (rural
electric cooperatives vs investor-owned utilities)
(American Survey) (Brief Article) The Economist (US), May
3, 1997 v342 n8015 p22(1).[online database:] InfoTrac EF
[Excerpt:]
Rural co-ops stretch out over 73% of the land mass,
have $60 billion in assets and serve 30m people in 46
states. But according to Lester Thurow, a professor of
economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology
and the keynote speaker at the National Rural Electric
Co-operative Association's annual meeting in Las Vegas,
their competitive advantage over private power companies
has probably gone.
|
russ
|
|
response 87 of 176:
|
Jun 3 16:50 UTC 2001 |
Re #86: I doubt that a DSL coop could survive. DSL has its costs
(wires) dictated by the phone companies, and is in competition with
those same phone companies for customers. All the independents
are going out of business.
If you started a DSL coop you'd shortly have a balance sheet like
PG&E (only smaller) and for exactly the same reason.
|
gelinas
|
|
response 88 of 176:
|
Jun 3 18:26 UTC 2001 |
(The anti-trust settlement in 1982 was *supposed* to separate the
wire-providers from the service-providers. I guess it failed.)
|
mdw
|
|
response 89 of 176:
|
Jun 4 03:03 UTC 2001 |
There is a not-for-profit internet provider co-op, of sorts, in
michigan. It's called Merit.
|
gull
|
|
response 90 of 176:
|
Jun 5 02:51 UTC 2001 |
Yeah...unfortunately Merit's rates seem to be higher than most
*commercial* ISPs, unless you're an educational institution.
Covad made fuckedcompany.com about a week ago. Do we have new
connectivity lined up yet?
|
scg
|
|
response 91 of 176:
|
Jun 6 00:41 UTC 2001 |
(Merit is government funded, and isn't comperable to a standalone coop. In
the DSL case, the only way DSL was ever really cheap was because it was
getting subsidized by lots of people buying stock hoping to get rich.
Non-profit DSL wouldn't have the investors throwing money at it, and would
thus cost significantly more to its end users).
|
aruba
|
|
response 92 of 176:
|
Jun 6 02:41 UTC 2001 |
I should remind everyone that we have until June 15th (or possibly July 2nd)
to cancel our contract with CoreComm, or it renews for another year.
|
scg
|
|
response 93 of 176:
|
Jun 6 04:11 UTC 2001 |
Can the contract be changed to month to month at this point? What is the
cancellation penalty?
|
aruba
|
|
response 94 of 176:
|
Jun 6 08:08 UTC 2001 |
I can't find anything in the contract about penalties for breaking it. I
suppose we could try to negotiate a new contract that goes month-to-month.
|
janc
|
|
response 95 of 176:
|
Jun 6 09:45 UTC 2001 |
Is CoreComm the former Voyager or what?
Is there any alternative other than Ameritech DSL?
The only web page I can find for Ameritech DSL in Michigan is
http://www1.ameritech.com/sb/site/page/1,3002,2233,00.html
but this is assymmetric DSL, which is not what we want. Maybe
http://www1.ameritech.com/sb/site/page/1,3002,2512,00.html
is the right thing, but I can't tell exactly what it is and there
are no prices listed on-line.
The cable alternative is equally hard to figure out (prices are easy, but
they seem reluctant to tell you just how fast "High-Speed" is), and probably
unsuitable for Grex anyway.
Are there other alternatives? Return to ISDN?
|
janc
|
|
response 96 of 176:
|
Jun 6 09:59 UTC 2001 |
Apparantly some ISP resell Ameritech DSL, but a web search didn't reveal any.
|
i
|
|
response 97 of 176:
|
Jun 6 13:11 UTC 2001 |
We're interested in Ameritech DSL service very much like what grex would
want here at work, but they can't be bothered to respond to my inquiry.
|
gull
|
|
response 98 of 176:
|
Jun 6 14:17 UTC 2001 |
I think my boss recently managed to order a symmetric DSL connection from
Ameritech, but I don't know the details. You'd probably have to call and
talk to someone. Their web page is very unhelpful.
|
aruba
|
|
response 99 of 176:
|
Jun 6 17:22 UTC 2001 |
Re #95: CoreComm bought Voyager, apparently.
|
rksjr
|
|
response 100 of 176:
|
Jun 6 21:40 UTC 2001 |
Robert Cringely, host of the documentary "Triumph of the
Nerds" on PBS, has two sites which I found informative
regarding the business side of the DSL business, of which
the following are excerpts:
SEPTEMBER 14, 2000
Through an ILEC Darkly
How DSL Works and Might Even Make Us Rich
By Robert X. Cringely
I spent some time recently at Covad, the largest DSL
networking company in the U.S. Covad is my DSL provider,
though I have at other times had DSL service from
Northpoint Communciations and Pacific Bell. The reason
for our meeting was simple: I had no idea how DSL really
works. [...] [Robert Cringely's essay continues at the
following site:]
URL:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20000914.html
FEBRUARY 22, 2001
Sorry, Wrong Number
Why Your Phone Company Hates DSL
[...] Everyone I know would like a faster Internet
connection. That's the attraction of DSL, which is the
fastest connection at a good price that most of us can
get. Yet DSL is to many people a disappointment because
it can be so hard to get in the first place and often
hard to keep running. Both of these problems can be
traced back to a source that isn't your ISP and
probably isn't your DSL provider, either. The problem
is your phone company. [...] It appears to me that the
ILECs are for the most part treating their DSL service
as a loss leader. [...] Why not hold that money-losing
installation a few more months until all the DSL CLECs
are dead, then raise prices? [...] [The entirety of this
essay by Robert Cringely can be read at the following
site:]
URL:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20010222.html
|