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Grex > Coop9 > #27: Motion: To allow anonymous reading via Backtalk | |
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| 25 new of 624 responses total. |
remmers
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response 75 of 624:
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Dec 27 19:59 UTC 1996 |
I've been posting my original writing in open conferences on
Grex for the last five years and before that on M-Net for the
previous seven. Both systems have always had an open newuser
I've entered a number of things in the poetry conference,
which has been accessible from the entire internet via telnet
during its entire existence. My stuff and everybody else's
in that conference has been sitting there for the taking the
whole time. Has anybody had a problem with their stuff being
stolen? I have not.
If a poetry thief finds out that there's a lot of good stuff
sitting around Grex for the taking, a little thing like running
through newuser isn't going to stop him or her. I think that
excluding read-only access via the web is a false protection
and that people are exaggerating the dangers here. I just don't
believe that all those supposed literary predators are really
out there.
Regarding copyrights: Did you know that under current copyright
law, everything you write is copyrighted, by you, from the
instant you create it? You don't have to put a copyright notice
on it or go through some registration procedure to enjoy copy-
right protection. In particular that applies to every original
work that's sitting in the poetry conference right now. If
somebody steals your work, you do have recourse.
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chelsea
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response 76 of 624:
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Dec 27 20:06 UTC 1996 |
Anyone who feels their words are their feeling and central to
their very being and is reluctant to lose control over their
text should *never* publish on Grex. That was your mistake.
It would be wrong of you to expect Grex to change so that
you can continue to publish here under your terms.
I would encourage you to remove your text as Grex cannot
be held responsible for who reads it and what the reader
does with it. And if Grex every attempts to try to
accept responsibility, on any level, we are opening
up Pandora's box of liability. Post at your own risk.
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jenna
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response 77 of 624:
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Dec 27 20:50 UTC 1996 |
Umm... Mary, correct me if i'm wrong, but you're telling me
it would be wrong of me to expect Grex to change for me?
Actually, I was asking Grex to NOT change for me, and
everybody else.
--To amend my origional statement:
--If the idea is to attract more and different people,
why not take a cue from the advertising industry. Take movies
for example. Promotional trailers are shown in other movies and onTV,
The movie companies aren;'t stupid enough to think that if they show
the whole movie on TV people will STILL buy tickets to see it at the theatre.
I think making a conference like INTRO accesible through the Web is a great
idea (as long as the people who's items have been linked to intro are ok with
it). I think it would leave the conferences the way the are mostly, but allow
curious people to get a floavor for all of grex.
Intro serves this purpose already on the BBS proper.
Sensitive material, such as in Poetry, Writing, Sexuality II
would be reserved for people who were interested in Grex and came here,
and Intro a great teaser. Very few people have Netscape and not telnet.
(oops,, Netscape or another Webbropwser).
This would solve my legality problem, Selena's confidentiality
problem, somebody's bandwith problem (it would take up less energy
to do one conference instead of all of tehem).
I would even go so far as to say Agora and Coop, by their very nature
might give curious websurfers a taste of Grex, even more than the Newuser
pprogram does.
--
CN there be a compromise here? I'm not the only one against general web
access, and I don't see why we can't all come to some kind of peace.
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janc
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response 78 of 624:
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Dec 27 20:53 UTC 1996 |
I don't think the "legality problem" exists. Other problems may.
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general
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response 79 of 624:
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Dec 27 21:51 UTC 1996 |
Well, I've said my piece, and it obviously made no difference. I apologize
for wasting your time and valuable disk space. I won't be commenting
again.
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ryan1
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response 80 of 624:
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Dec 27 22:25 UTC 1996 |
<drift>
Re: resp:35
John, do you know where I could find more information on copyrights and
stuff? Such as what I have to go through to put a notice in the
programs that I write, that I have it copyrighted, and all rights are
reserved? I would appreciate any resourced you could guide me to. :)
I don't want people stealing programs I write. (who knows? some day
somebody might want something I write.)
A good example of this is my first version of the partybot I wrote on
grex. I wrote an origional version, and somebody stole a copy, and made
it say a notice that they wrote it.... Long story...
</drift>
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brighn
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response 81 of 624:
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Dec 27 22:53 UTC 1996 |
Jan C said it very well about a dozen posts back.
LEt's multiply the analogies. John, if you told me that a thief would steal
your car if he really wanted to, and a little thing like a lock wouldn't stop
him, I would hardly take that as an argument to leave the cars on the driver's
seat. That's silly.
And Nephi, read Jan's comments re: anonymity. He said it a lot better than
I can in my current mood. Selena isn't anonymous in the sense that bothers
me.
Truth is, I don't care all that much about my poetry getting stolen, I just
couldn't put my finger on what *was* bothering me. What's bothering me is that
anonymous (guest) reads feel too impersonal. Grex is about community.
Community is people talking together. Community is *NOT NOT NOT* people
snooping in the windows. Freekman is not anonymous... Freekman is Freekman.
The fact that there happens to be one or two or three corresponding humans
IRL is irrelevant. When I log on, I'm an internet being, not a human one.
Question 1: How many people are genuinely going to get accounts based on guest
accounts? That's a serious question. How many current telnet users of Grex
used Guest before creating an account, and what proportion of people using
the Guest account ultimately create accounts?
Question 2: What is the purpose of Guest reading? If it's advertising, then
this is a piss-poor way to advertise. Better to create a long but feasible
advertisement containing bits and pieces of all the conferences. I'll edit
the text. I will, if we drop this. You want advertisement, give me the
go-ahead and drop this issue until I've generated sufficient text, and I'll
outdo anything as pacific as Guest accounts.
The problem, in my view, with the conferences is that new entrants into
conferences are so overwhelmed with old discussions that they can't find an
entree. Making people daunted by the admitted cliquishness before they've even
bothered to create an account is just going to scare them off more. Instead,
we should be working on finding ways to make the conferences *more* welcoming,
not less.
If newuser takes too long to use, then make newuser easier. Guest reading does
NOT make newuser any easier to use, it just puts off the agony.
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jenna
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response 82 of 624:
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Dec 28 01:22 UTC 1996 |
Janc - is that saying you think the idea is a completely
bad one, or just nitpicking?
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dpc
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response 83 of 624:
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Dec 28 01:41 UTC 1996 |
I'm sure there's no "legality problem" since all of jenna's stuff has
been freely accessible here through telnet.
As to anonymous reading of Backtalk-created stuff, there are
excellent arguments on both sides. I haven't made up my mind yet.
*But* I don't think that there is this tremendous pent-up
demand to read Grex postings through that route anyway.
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robh
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response 84 of 624:
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Dec 28 01:49 UTC 1996 |
A valid point - how many people are there out there saying,
"Gosh, I'd sure love to find some place with good computer
conferencing. There's this Grex place, that says it has
conferencing, but filling out that web newuser form takes
a whole five minutes! Forget it, I can't take a chance
on something like that, for all I know they're really
talking about IRC."
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dang
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response 85 of 624:
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Dec 28 03:11 UTC 1996 |
Nit: I don't believe there is a guest login for telnet. (At least, noone
ever told me about one, and when I treied to log in as guest, it prompted for
a password...)
Sorry, but people are yelling about it.
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brighn
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response 86 of 624:
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Dec 28 04:53 UTC 1996 |
The whole defense of the Web Guest access is the existence of Telnet Guest
access. If there is no Telnet Guest access, then the REAL motion should be
to allow Guest access at all.
But I'm inclined to believe that Guest is just malfunctioning. I recall it
being there.
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scg
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response 87 of 624:
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Dec 28 04:55 UTC 1996 |
re 84:
You're assuming that anybody who is going to find Grex interesting is
going to be looking for a computer conferencing system. In my case, it had
never occurred to me that computer conferencing might be something I was
interested in. I just kind of stumbled on it.
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orinoco
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response 88 of 624:
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Dec 28 13:50 UTC 1996 |
brighn--while I don't know if there is a telnet login called 'guest', it is
certainly possible to telnet in without giving your name.
Personally, I find the idea of grex requiring verification
somnewhat...unpleasant. It strikes me as against what grex stands for.
As for a grex login being a member of the community even if they don't give
out any personal information, that's just not true. There are already many
users of grex who are not at all part of the grex community, who don't
contribute in any way, who are just here for free email. But, *this doesn't
mean they are a bad thing*. I know I wouldn't be here at all if I wasn't
first attracted to grex by the prospect of free mail. I know many grexers
who started as lurkers and became active members of the grex community. Just
because someone who uses grex doesn't tell you their name, or use the
conferences, or whatever, doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to use grex.
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dang
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response 89 of 624:
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Dec 28 14:23 UTC 1996 |
Brighn: I haven't seen any arguments based on a guest login for telnet. All
of the arguments I've seen are based on the fact that there is no way to know
if the person who telnets in is who they say they are, and there is no way
to know what they do here, and whether or not they read any particular item
in any particular cf. So, they are anonymous. Completely. Through backtalk,
even if they don't have to make an account, we still know exactly what items
of what cf they read, the IP address of the machine they were on (even if they
were on a PPP connection) and the time and date of every connection, from the
httpd logs. So, in a sense, they are even less anonymous through "anonymous"
backtalk than they are through telnet. But, as Jan pointed out, that's
anonymity really has nothing to do with either side of the argument, and is
merely confusing the issue. (Case in point, you were confused. :)
I've decided to change my opinion the the extent that I no longer have an
opinion on this issue. I'd like to hear more arguments to both sides before
I decide.
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brighn
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response 90 of 624:
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Dec 28 16:43 UTC 1996 |
Dang, Orinoco, Jan attempted to clarify the issue.
Since you two don't understand what's being talked about, maybe there should
be no member vote whatsoever until it's clear that the members know just
what's going on.
There are two types of logins thathave been called anonymous in this
discussion.
(1) Unverified logins.
(2) Guest logins.
(1) An unverified login is where a person is using a personal handle, but has
not had their personal information verified by Grex administration. The vast,
vast majority of handles are unverified. It would be utterly preposterous for
anyone to claim that backtalk (that is, Web users) should not be allowed to
use this option. Backtalk HAS been using this option since its inception. This
item is not about that.
(2) A guest login is where a person is using a handle such as "guest" (on most
systems). They have given *no* personal information. They cannot write to
items, they can only read, and when they log off, the system is reset so that
the next time they log on, everything is new again. Backtalk does NOT use
this system, while telnet and dialin access allegedly does.
The main popint of this amendment is, since telnet and dialin allows anonymous
(i.e. guest) logins, so should the Web. I disagree, I don't think grex should
even *have* an anonymous (i.e. guest) login.
Hmmm, I just reread those last two posts, and I guess you two *are* clear as
to what's being talked about, but I do think the issue is getting too muddied.
At any rate, it's an issue of respect, to me, not potential to do damage.
It's disrespectful, in my view, to read a conference without joining it,
and to read a BBS without joining it.
Anonymity is a ridiculous argument. Of *course* unverified users are anonymous
in the sense that we don't know, for sure, who they are in the real world.
Furthermore, though, I've met quite a few grexers IRL: Jenna, RobH, Scott,
Popcorn, Blondval, Kami, ... Do I *know* any of them? Would I be surprised
if a poem, for example, that I had written showed up in a magazine with Kami's
name under it? Disappointed, sure. Aggravated, sure. I would probably call
Kami up and yell at her. But these things have happened, to other people in
the past. Plagiarism was not invented at the same timea s anonymous reads.
How much information do you have to know about a person before you know them
enough to trust them? What proportion of a community or a user pool do you
have to know before you can trust the entire user pool?
These are all subjective questions.
My answers are:
I know enough users of Grex well enough to trust the entire Grex user pool
with what I have posted (which is *not* everything about mee).
I know enough administratos of Grex well enough to trust them not to read my
mail, which I understand they could conceivably do, and so I have put more
sensitive things in my mail.
I know enough users of the Internet and the Web to know that I do *not* trust
the entire Web community with the same information that I trust Grexers with.
I don't think those are foolhardy answers. In the main, I would assume that
most people would answer the same way. How the answers would differ would be
on how much information to trust with which group.
Now then, I think the huge, collossal question at the root of this is:
Are guest login users part of the Grex user ppol, or are they merely users
of the Internet/Web user pool?
Mary's answer, and that of others, I would guess, would be that guest logins
are members of the Grex user pool. Rob and I, I would guess, would say they
aren't. Are people who look in a store window patrons of the store? No! Some
of them might, in fact, come into the store. If that weren't the case, stores
wouldn't put anything int heir windows. Window displays are to encourage
passersby to come into the store.
But they aren't patrons until they open the door and step in.
Now, if I owned a store, it would be absurd of me to check IDs and do
background felony checks on every customer who walked in. But it would be just
as absurd of me to put every single item I have for sale in my front window.
User verification is the equivalent of checking every single customer.
Guest login is the equivalent of putting every single thing in the window.
If I did either of these things, I would go out of business within months.
Trust me.
So, I reiterate. Give me the go-ahead, give me a pprogramming partner who can
put my text on the Web Page, and I'll write an advertisement including the
best of a wide variety of the conferences, if not all. Dropp this silly issue.
Or give me a good reason why my analogy doesn't work.
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mta
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response 91 of 624:
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Dec 28 19:48 UTC 1996 |
As Mary so often reminds us, GREX is not and was never meant to be a private
club. GREX is an open access conferencing system. It always has been, it's
always been run that way. One of our missions is to provide as much service
to as many people with as few strings as is feasible.
I'm completely in favour of continuing to manage GREX that way. That includes
letting wanderers past have a look at GREX with no strings. If they want to
post, they have to get a login ID. But I can't see any harm in letting them
read the conferences.
The discussions here on GREX have *always* taken place in a public forum.
Always. If you think not, then I think perhaps you misunderstood what GREX
is. That's unfortunate. But it doesn't change the facts.
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srw
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response 92 of 624:
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Dec 28 20:12 UTC 1996 |
There are a lot of things about the store analogy that don't work. We give
everything away here. We don't charge for items. It is not absurd for us to
put everything in the front window, since it is big enough.
The users who haven't created identities (accounts) are potential users. It
seems wrong to me to deny them access to the contents of Grex. If they like
what they see, they will tell us their (net) identities. If not, they will
not bother us again.
My understanding of the legalities:
When you post on Grex, you implicitly grant the right to share your post with
whoever wishes to read it. If what you wrote was original, then you retain
the copyright, but not the right to limit distribution. You can remove your
old postings to stop grex from distributing them, but obviously we wish you
would not choose to. Only the membership, or its designated board, has the
authority to determine or limit in what manner posts may be distributed.
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brighn
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response 93 of 624:
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Dec 28 21:45 UTC 1996 |
Nobody is denying anybody the right to anything.
If anyone wants to read Grex, all they have to do is create an account.
Misti and Mary, if this weren't a *change* we wouldn't be discussing it.
This is clearly *not* the way Grex has always been. If this *were* the way
Grex had always been, then we wouldn't be *changing* anything.
See how this works?
Way things have always been... --> No discussion of changing
Way things haven't always been... --> Discussion of change
eople who want Grex to change to suit them > Mary, Misti, Popcorn
People who like Grex the way it is > Rob, Selena, Brighn, Jenna
I wish the people who want to CHANGE grex would stop acting like they're in
the right and the conservatives are in the wrong.
I am beginning to realize something. I was wrong to trust anyone on Grex in
the first pplace. This is a clique run by a bunch of yahoos who distort
reality until ttey get their way. Hey, what do you know, Kerouac was right
about something.
As for the legal distribution thing:
(1) I personally have dropped that, although I know others haven't.
(2) Anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything. There's no reason to tempt
fate.
It takes five minutes to create an account.
Let's see how long it take me to delete mine.
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brighn
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response 94 of 624:
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Dec 28 22:06 UTC 1996 |
I also grow weary of people making threats and not following them up.
I do it a lot myself.
So I'll make good on my threat.
I'm sure this will please a lot of you.
I've set my mail to forward to my student account.
I won't be logging on anymore.
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general
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response 95 of 624:
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Dec 28 22:18 UTC 1996 |
I don't know what to say about this. This is going a little far.
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srw
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response 96 of 624:
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Dec 28 22:41 UTC 1996 |
Well, no one was asking Brighn to follow up on his threats. I suspect that
most will not consider Grex to be better off if he doesn't log in.
I don't know what you can do when people feel that way.
I'm disappointed.
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popcorn
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response 97 of 624:
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Dec 28 23:52 UTC 1996 |
Re 90: Brighn, you misunderstand about the anonymous login question.
Grex does *not* have a "guest" login that anybody can use. There is an ID
called "guest" right now, but it is somebody's personal account.
The idea of allowing anonymous reading of items via backtalk is not based on
the idea that there is a "guest" account. Rather, it's based on the fact that
anybody can run newuser, create an account, and read items in the conferences.
Anonymous reading in backtalk makes this same process easier.
Also, I think you're taking a one-sided approach to choosing which way is more
in keeping with the way Grex has always done things. You say that it's more
consistent to not add new features. But you can also say it's more consistent
with Grex's past to add new features and new ways to make the system more
accessible to everyone. I don't think either side has a monopoly on what is
more consistent or conservative. I'm also not entirely sure that "more
conservative" is a really strong reason for choosing any particular course
of action.
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orinoco
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response 98 of 624:
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Dec 29 03:10 UTC 1996 |
Quite frankly, the idea that you can trust a 'grexer', and that you can't
trust a 'websurfer' or a 'guest', when the only difference between a grexer
and a guest is that one has run the newuser program and one hasn't, is absurd.
How does just running the newuser program make someone more trustworthy in
any way?
I'm certainly sorry if I am misunderstanding something, but all I have seen
so far in the way of explanation is reiteration of the same few points that
I evidently am not understanding. Could someone please tell me exactly what
point it is that I'm missing, rather than just telling me I don't understand.
In any case, it doesn't really matter since I'm not a member and can't vote,
but it would be nice to know if I'm misunderstanding something.
I understand the 'difference' between unverified users and anonymous backtalk
users. I just think it is a trivial difference and it doesn't make sense to
discriminate based on it.
Brighn--if you see this, which I doubt you will, I'm sorry if trying to
support my opinion has offended you. If I am 'distorting reality', I am not
aware of it, but I wish you would try to set me right instead of insulting
me.
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tsty
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response 99 of 624:
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Dec 29 07:46 UTC 1996 |
if the difference is 'so trivial,' then let the triviality prevail and
the readers can login here *first*. after all, it is so trivial.
btw, both the reality and the sarcasm apply above.
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