response 75 of 176:

May 26 07:50 UTC 2001

We've done the 'someone's basement' thing before.  Generally, this is an
intolerable nuisance for the victim when it actually comes time to claim
the stuff.  Grex stuff could be divided into the following classes:
        <1> equipment actually in use
        <2> spare equipment duplicating what's in use
        <3> backups, documentation and other stuff
        <4> future hardware being tested or worked on before placing
                in service
        <5> donations or cheap acquisitions that we hope will turn
                into 4,2,1.
        <6> old stuff, such as equipment that was either in use,
                or became obselete before we figured out how to use it
        <7> stuff to put other stuff on, including shelves, desk, chairs.

Of these 7 classes, a colo location will generally only take 1.  Even 1
may be limited - the grex "console" might have to become a laptop that
is used on the floor in front of the machine, for instance.
Documentation - too bad, it will have to live in people's heads.
Backups live at various people's houses.  A nuisance, but thank god
backups are physically small, and only the newest one is actually
useful.  Future hardware - have to become much more dependent on one-man
shows - no more shared undertakings, or the leisure to spend 6 months
porting all the software to a new hardware platform.  Donations or cheap
acquisitions - forget it; plan on purchasing *new* hardware instead,
spending more money, and probably being more vulnerable to vandals.  Old
stuff - well, there, at least, the tax vultures will have nothing to
pick on.

Actually, if someone has a cheap 386 laptop or two they'd like to donate
to grex, we really could use it as the console.

response 77 of 176:

May 26 21:21 UTC 2001

Most colo spaces I've been in have a table or two available to pull up and
put the laptop being used as a console on while doing work.  For the most
part, though, it makes a lot more sense for the console to be something
remotely accessable, so that people don't have to go on site whenever 
console access is needed.  There are plenty of other solutions to 
documentation storage rather than having it in peoples' heads, and Grex 
certainly wouldn't be the first organization to run into such issues.  
Backups shouldn't be onsite, although I suppose a colo arrangement where 
somebody else was swapping tapes might increase the likelyhood that they 
could be stored locally.

Perhaps an office somewhere is useful for shared work on new hardware.  When
is the last time that was done?  When is the next time it's planned?  Perhaps
some cheap office space could be found when needed, or the Pumpkin could be
used for that purpose if it's considered worth spending money on. 
Alternatively, setting up the new hardware somewhere with a remote console
would satisfy most of the software installation needs.

Items six and seven on your list would become irrellevant.  Item five is
certainly something that could be stored somewhere other than an office.

Anyhow, the objections to doing anything about Grex's situation are getting
old.  Grex's current Net connectivity will go away in a hurry if Covad goes
out of business, and there will be no quick way to replace it.  Computer and
networking equipment can and does catch on fire, often even continuing to
function while burning, such that an environment like the Pumpkin with nobody
around and no fire suppression system, the Pumpkin and its contents could
disappear quickly without warning.  The extremely hot conditions in that
room, and all the dust and loose papers that the room is full of, don't help
Grex's chances there.  We've now had one serious system problem directly
attributable to the dust, and who knows how many of our past problems have
been caused by the temperature.  Do you have any other suggestions for how
to solve these problems, especially that of network connectivity?

My strong impression is that nobody is doing any thinking about the network
connectivity issue.  The impression I've gotten from the rest of the staff
when there have been network connectivity problems recently is that it's seen
as my problem, and even getting somebody else to make a phone call to Grex's
ISP took weeks.  I live 2300 miles away.  There is nothing I can do for Grex
from this distance concerning network connectivity.  Grex is very low on my
priority list at this point, and I'm certainly not going to get on a plane
to go deal with it, nor am I interested in continuing to be seen as
responsible for something I don't have access to.  Somebody else needs to
take this over and become concerned about it, if Grex is going to last.  If
Grex goes away or drops off the Net, I'll be sad, but I'll probably find more
interesting things to do with my time.  There's nothing I can do from this
distance to save it.

response 79 of 176:

May 26 21:31 UTC 2001

I cleaned up the loose papers in the Pumpkin today, and I'll vacuum
tomorrow.

response 81 of 176:

May 27 01:30 UTC 2001

Re #75: I would expect that if there's new hardware being set up,
software work could probably be done by it being put on a ``barrowed''
net connection while it's being set up.

Having the console of a machine be remotely accessible and having
remote powercycling is nice regardless of whether you're in colo.
(I've set up remote powercycling and console access for hardware both
at the FSF's main office in Boston, and for a machine they have in
colo; at 9PM, when everyone in the office has gone home, it might as
well be in colo as far as I'm concerned, not wanting to spend 45
minutes each way to go into the office.)  Indeed, if a laptop were
found that had two serial ports and could have an ethernet port
installed, that might be ideal for use for a console for grex.

Re #77: I haven't found tables being really available at either of the
colo places I've dealt with installing hardware at, but I'm sure this
varies.

I am curious what the costs are of all the problems that mdw talks
about vs the savings in rent.

Whether backups can be done by the colo facility depends on the colo
facility.  Many see backups as a premium service they can sell to make
more money.  Global NAPS certainly doesn't want to do backups for
their customers, and I don't remember Level 3 being especially anxious
to run your backups for you, although I'm not sure I was paying enough
attention.

Is there any useful colo around Ann Arbor?  If the price of colo in
Chicago was right, would it be worth the trip?

response 83 of 176:

May 27 17:39 UTC 2001

Sounds like it's time to seriously consider colocation, or switching to
Ameritech for DSL.  Those would appear to be the only choices.  The company
I work for recently ordered an SDSL line from Ameritech (not for its main
connectivity, but for a project at another site.)  I can find out from my
boss what the rate is, but it's for a single machine so it probably wouldn't
be directly applicable to Grex's situation.

response 85 of 176:

May 28 01:41 UTC 2001

I thought so too.  I think the point they're trying to make is that it's a
bit of a blow considering that Michigan is struggling to attract hi-tech
industries, and considering that there are so few network providers here.

response 87 of 176:

Jun 3 16:50 UTC 2001

Re #86:  I doubt that a DSL coop could survive.  DSL has its costs
(wires) dictated by the phone companies, and is in competition with
those same phone companies for customers.  All the independents
are going out of business.

If you started a DSL coop you'd shortly have a balance sheet like
PG&E (only smaller) and for exactly the same reason.

response 89 of 176:

Jun 4 03:03 UTC 2001

There is a not-for-profit internet provider co-op, of sorts, in
michigan.  It's called Merit.

response 91 of 176:

Jun 6 00:41 UTC 2001

(Merit is government funded, and isn't comperable to a standalone coop.  In
the DSL case, the only way DSL was ever really cheap was because it was
getting subsidized by lots of people buying stock hoping to get rich. 
Non-profit DSL wouldn't have the investors throwing money at it, and would
thus cost significantly more to its end users).

response 93 of 176:

Jun 6 04:11 UTC 2001

Can the contract be changed to month to month at this point?  What is the
cancellation penalty?

response 95 of 176:

Jun 6 09:45 UTC 2001

Is CoreComm the former Voyager or what?

Is there any alternative other than Ameritech DSL?

The only web page I can find for Ameritech DSL in Michigan is
http://www1.ameritech.com/sb/site/page/1,3002,2233,00.html
but this is assymmetric DSL, which is not what we want.  Maybe
http://www1.ameritech.com/sb/site/page/1,3002,2512,00.html
is the right thing, but I can't tell exactly what it is and there
are no prices listed on-line.

The cable alternative is equally hard to figure out (prices are easy, but
they seem reluctant to tell you just how fast "High-Speed" is), and probably
unsuitable for Grex anyway.

Are there other alternatives?  Return to ISDN?

response 97 of 176:

Jun 6 13:11 UTC 2001

We're interested in Ameritech DSL service very much like what grex would
want here at work, but they can't be bothered to respond to my inquiry.

response 99 of 176:

Jun 6 17:22 UTC 2001

Re #95: CoreComm bought Voyager, apparently.