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14 new of 88 responses total.
keesan
response 75 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 15 18:20 UTC 2001

How I wonder what you are.  (Was this tune chosen for this phrase?)
Was there much program music written before the nineteenth century?  (Would
you count St. Matthew's Passion, for instance).
md
response 76 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 15 18:36 UTC 2001

davel is right.  Blacksheep would indeed require four sixes.  I *meant* 
Twinkle Twinkle, but ABCDEFG also matches.  So I guess it's davel's 
turn if he wants it.

*I* wouldn't call the St. Matthew Passion "program music," but I don't 
know.  Vivaldi's Seasons might be a better example from that era.
mary
response 77 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 15 22:36 UTC 2001

Well, I'm more into the rap version of Blacksheep.

Ba Ba Blacksheep, got you wool?

Yo, Dave.  Yous up.
orinoco
response 78 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 15 23:03 UTC 2001

(I always mis-read "Tapiola" as "Tapioca."  At the moment it's just a
minor weirdness, but someday I'll actually hear the piece, and I'll be
able to turn this into a witty and cutting piece of criticism.  You've
been warned.)


md
response 79 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 00:31 UTC 2001

Yeah, it always reminds me of "tapioca," too.  I found out that Tapio 
is the forest god in Finnish mythology and that the -la suffix means 
something like "place" or "home" in Finnish, so "Tapiola" means "chez 
Tapio."
md
response 80 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 00:34 UTC 2001

[I don't suppose that helps much, now that I look at it.]
keesan
response 81 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 02:45 UTC 2001

I heard something by Mark O'Connor (Conner?) that was probably modern and also
had a nice melody and sounded like a fugue.  Who and when is/was Mark?
Finnish is related to Turkish, in which the grammar is nearly backwards from
English.  Instead of a preposition before a noun, you put a one-syllable
ending on the noun, so maybe Tapiola means in or at Tapio.  In in Turkihs is
-ta or -da- or -te  or -de depending on what it follows (Turkish also makes
its vowels match - all front or all back - unless they are from Arabic).
davel
response 82 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 14:11 UTC 2001

Well, it's probably too obscure, but it's what comes to mind:
DGGGGBD

(Bonus points for anyone who actually knows the original words.  Several songs
have been set to this tune since, but AFAIK none of *them* are especially
current, either.)
davel
response 83 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 14:11 UTC 2001

(If there are rules to this thing I've missed them.)
dbratman
response 84 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 18:50 UTC 2001

keesan: Limiting your question to composers writing currently (though 
not necessarily to their work of the last ten years: I don't always 
keep that au courant), I would endorse md's suggestion of Adams 
(probably the greatest living American composer), Maxwell Davies 
(possibly the greatest living British one - when looking for his stuff, 
be aware that he's filed under both M and D in different places), and 
Corigliano.  Not so sure about Rorem, but I haven't heard any of his 
post-1970 work.  And to them I would add the Michael Gang, consisting 
of the two living American composers I consider the most fun - Michael 
Torke and Michael Daugherty - and the unpredictable Brit Michael Nyman.

However, be warned: first, none of these composers are really great 
tunesmiths, and some of them are not really melody-oriented at all 
(Maxwell Davies, Corigliano, and Nyman are the most melodic).  Adams, 
for instance, writes soundscape music.  When I heard his Harmonielehre 
live, I felt enveloped by the overtones, something I've never been able 
to feel in a recording, burdened by a mere mortal stereo system.

Second, many of them run the gamut in style.  Maxwell Davies and 
Corigliano, in particular, have written very harsh and difficult music 
as well as the more "enjoyable" stuff.  Avoid their symphonies!  For 
Maxwell Davies, I'd most recommend a CD titled "In Celebration of 
Scotland" (from Unicorn, but I haven't checked to see if it's still in 
print).

I agree with md's explanation of program music.  Some works, like 
Dukas' Sorcerer's Apprentice and Richard Strauss's Till Eulenspiegel, 
don't even make sense musically if you don't know the program (though 
Strauss would be very hurt to be told that).  Program music is music 
that _tells_ a story in music alone, not music that _accompanies_ a 
story also told in words or pictures.  Thus the St Matthew Passion is 
no more program music than an opera or ballet is.

Re "cartoon music", that's an ex post facto term applied to the kind of 
older music that got borrowed for early cartoons.  (Besides "cartoon 
music" there is also "monster movie music", a term often applied to 
Bartok.  The music the puppets danced to at the start of "Being John 
Malkovich" - that was Bartok.)  Three pieces of classical music I first 
heard in cartoons, and which would probably be recognized by lots of 
people who have no idea what they are, are Mendelssohn's Spring Song 
[to underscore giddy drunken happiness], Chopin's Funeral March [to 
underscore impending Doom], and the pastoral theme (not the Lone Ranger 
galop) from Rossini's William Tell Overture [to underscore a peaceful 
country scene].  All early 19C, interestingly enough.

md: Before I try to recommend any Glass, you'd better tell me what you 
think the boundary between his minimalist and post-minimalist works 
are.  This has been a subject of much terminological confusion.  Glass 
himself defines minimalism as what he ceased writing about 1975, when 
he let more traditional concepts of harmony and melody into what had 
previously been highly austere music.  By this definition, Music in 12 
Parts, say, is minimalist, and Einstein on the Beach is on the cusp, 
but everything since then is post-minimalist.  Both Satyagraha and 
Akhnaten contain passages of great beauty by traditional operatic 
standards, whatever may be said of them as wholes.

I didn't say that complexity was an issue for you, but for Glass's 
critics.  Thus, when they say his non-minimalist music fails, it's 
because they're judging it by inappropriate standards.  Some of which 
may be Glass's fault: when he writes a work he calls a symphony, that 
sets up expectations which Glass does not meet - but neither do half 
the 20C works called symphonies, including several of Shostakovich's, 
so it's not just Glass's failure.  I am a Glass fan who does consider 
many of his recent works to be unsuccessful, but the critics apply 
their comments to the entire range of his works, so they're using 
different standards from mine.  Also, many (not all!) of the criticisms 
of Glass are for doing things not remotely unique to him, and which 
much-loved composers have done.  When Schubert's Great C Major Symphony 
was first discovered, its backers had a terrible time getting it 
performed.  "Violinists won't stand for playing the same figuration for 
90 bars in a row," they were told.  Sound familiar?  Of course there 
was a tune (in other instruments) on top of that figure, but there is 
in post-minimalist Glass too.
md
response 85 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 17 00:24 UTC 2001

I was at a record shop today and almost picked up Glass's 5th symphony, 
thinking it surely must be post-minimalist, but the price and the box 
it was in put me off: $30, and it looked like a boxed set of CDs, but 
there appeared to be only one CD in there, plus ten or so inserts of 
some sort.  Are you familiar with this?  Wtf is it??  I think I will go 
back and buy at least the new Adams CD I sampled.  A work for piano and 
orchestra, I forget the title.  The second movement started out like a 
Satie Gymnopedie.
dbratman
response 86 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 18 07:27 UTC 2001

md: I haven't heard Glass's 5th Symphony yet, but I have all the other 
four.  I consider them all fine works, but not his best.  I'd certainly 
not suggest this apparently premium package to a person very unsure of 
whether he'd like it.

If you're disinclined to tell me what works by Glass you've heard and 
disliked, I'll tentatively suggest two albums: "Songs from the 
Trilogy", a selection of vocal highlights from the three 
operas "Einstein on the Beach", "Akhnaten", and "Satyagraha"; and a new 
Glass album in Naxos's American Classics series.  Tower (at least) 
shelves their Naxos albums separately from all others.  This contains 
the finest performance on record that I know of his Violin Concerto, a 
good rendition of the string orchestra work Company, and two rather 
badly selected and rendered orchestral excerpts from Akhnaten.

Which album you should go for depends on your tastes of vocal vs. 
orchestral music, and also your budget: Naxos is cheap.
md
response 87 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 18 12:25 UTC 2001

I'll look for the Naxos CD.  Thanks!

Naxos is producing a series of CDs of the complete orchestral music of 
Samuel Barber, so they'd be on my "A" list if only for that.  One of 
the CDs will include the Toccata Festiva, which as far as I know was 
recorded only once back in the early 1960s and never released on CD.  I 
have to trot out my old Columbia LP if I want to hear it.
dbratman
response 88 of 88: Mark Unseen   Mar 19 18:38 UTC 2001

The Naxos "American Classics" series is simply amazing: although for 
most composers they're only issuing one disc each, their selection of 
composers is both broad and deep for those of us interested in the 
conservative orchestral tradition of American music.  The performances 
are mostly respectable.  It's very interesting to hear Glass in that 
tradition, and there are lots of other composers worth a passing 
interest.  I think we were discussing Meredith Willson here or in some 
other thread: I picked up the disc of his two symphonies.  They're not 
masterworks by any account, but pleasant: and I couldn't resist.
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