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| Author |
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| 25 new of 108 responses total. |
srw
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response 70 of 108:
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Mar 23 03:07 UTC 1998 |
Didn't the flying toasters come from a Jefferson Airplane Album? Wasn't
Berkely Software sued over it? Isn't that the reason that the toasters
found themselves not well suited for even the video effects ecosystem,
and so they are now to be found only in the grex drift items ecosystem?
<flap flap pop>
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memetics
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response 71 of 108:
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Apr 5 00:23 UTC 1998 |
lots of things to say on the above
I bet Microsoft are doing some serious logging of all that hotmail email, a
very popular hang out for all sorts of fringe types on the internet.
Hotmail addresses can be traced - in the headers the originating IP address
is listed. And if the user of the account is doing some really nasty the ISP
that IP address traces to might be of help.
Why bother with hacking?
1) Intellectual challenge
2) To warn potential targets before someone less ethical comes along
3) Kudos
As stated - depends on the definition of "hack". Do you mean finding the
error in the code for the ftp daemon and sneaking a root shell? Or do you
mean running a lame script that winnuke's a University's Class B? The former
is intelligent, the latter is vandalism.
I would have thought Grex would be popular with hackers - free telnet account,
a chance to run all sorts of things. Plus what's the security at
cyberspace.org like, we don't get chrooted.....
Oh, and a fourth reason to hack - to gain employment. i presume groups such
as IBM's "ethical" hackers get paid lots of money.
I forget the names - because I have v poor memory, but the two guys who set
up Apple were both phreakers ( phone system hackers ). Don't know hackers
( white hats ) who come in, impress the sysadmin, tell him of the holes, and
then leave, its the "black hats" you need to worry about.
mcnally and other - most hackers are "script kiddies", who use "hack in a box"
t001z to make an impact. I'm definitely a script kiddie :)
and that's that - looks like I joined the conversation too late - just when
everythign changed to toaster talk
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srw
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response 72 of 108:
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Apr 6 20:46 UTC 1998 |
your comments were interesting, though, and the toaster talk appears to
have died down to 0 after my cutting questions in resp:70.
My hats off to hackers who can distinguish ethical hacking from the
other kind, and who can remain ethical. I learned about hacking at the
source of all hacking, the Tech model Railroad Club in the 1960s. yes,
I'm old. yes, I'm square. But I am a hacker in the original sense.
We didn't have any vandals. We at TMRC are deeply offended that in the
popular culture the behavior of people who steal service, break root to
read other people's mail, run denial-of-service attacks, deal in
stolen passwords and CC numbers, and generally commit hi-tech vandalism,
is called hacking. That stuff is all illegal and for a good
reason. Hacking is an ethical activity, or at least it was until the
media came in and redefined the word to include vandalism.
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srw
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response 73 of 108:
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Apr 6 20:48 UTC 1998 |
Lots of script kiddies come to grex to run their scripts, because we are
so open. What amazes me is that they see a point in trying to crack a
system that has the door open and the welcome mat down.
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memetics
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response 74 of 108:
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Apr 15 15:44 UTC 1998 |
Last point first. Disappointed to see the script kiddies using GREX as a
playground. If I had that kind of time / ability I'd use it to better
effect than playing with a useful, friendly free service like GREX.
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memetics
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response 75 of 108:
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Apr 15 15:50 UTC 1998 |
Steve,
The Tech Model Railroad Club? I can't say I've heard of it - please enlighten
me, by email if you wish.
Hey, old is kewl, that means you have more knowledge. As far as hacking goes,
in any sense of the word, I would have thought the older the better, as long
as you're up to date with new tech. The speed of youth isn't particularly
useful when you've got to solve a problem through knowledge and intuition
rather than outright mental speed.
All of what you details above, reading mail, DoS, even CC numbers is ethical
I think, depending on the situation, the motive and the cause.
My history isn't up to scratch, did the media redefine the word, or did the
hackers redefine the activity?
one last note - I noticed with some sadness that in the recent web coverage
of hacking the main feature of many artivles was a survey on the definitions
of hacking and cracking - is that as close as we get to debate these days?
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srw
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response 76 of 108:
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Apr 16 03:02 UTC 1998 |
/Hackers/, by Steven Levy (New York: Anchor Press/Doubleday,
1984) explains the role of TMRC pretty well.
TMRC's web site is at http://www.mit.edu/activities/tmrc/
I was one of the contributors to that site. In particular, I wrote the
page at http://www.mit.edu/activities/tmrc/hackers-ref.html which pretty
well describes the feelings of us TMRC hackers about the term.
"Crackers" was a term invented later in an attempt to deflect all the
new meaning that the term "hackers" took on, but did not originally
have. I think it failed. Most people do not make this distinction
(between hackers and crackers). Follow the link to the new Hacker's
Dictionary for the definition they give of the term hacker. I quote
definition 8 here for you:
8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive
information by poking around. Hence `password hacker', `network hacker'.
The correct term for this sense is cracker.
(source http://earthspace.net/jargon/jargon_23.html)
And indeed I am a long-time deprecator of that definition, though I
don't find "cracker" satisfying. It hasn't worked. I use the term
"vandal" now. It doesn't sound like "hacker" and it has all the right
connotations (from my point of view).
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memetics
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response 77 of 108:
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Apr 21 17:05 UTC 1998 |
Hackers by Levy is one book I haven't got. I must get that at some point,
presumably out of print by now.
I think the reason that "cracker" didn't work is because it was an invented
term. The only people who can get away with inventing new language "on
purpose" are the mass-media. Otherwise any invented term is seen as an
invented term - part of the point of jargon is to exclude those without the
appropriate knowledge so if old-definiton hackers want to call "computer
vandals" crackers the crackers aren't going to go along with it. Plus in part
the definition of hacker from
http://www.mit.edu/activities/tmrc/hackers-ref.html applies, ie.:-
someone who applies ingenuity to achieve a clever result
I thinkt he means are not in dispute, it's just that the ends of hackers,
crackers, vandals whatever are seen in different ways by different groups.
For example se7en, the hacker who trashes paedophile's PC's, a good end or
a bad one?
I take that back - sometimes the means aren't ingenuious. Downloading winnuke
and throwing it at IRCers is hardly ingenuios.
It's a pleasure talking to you srw, and I'm glad I've found GREX. If only
to show that I am far too reliant on spell-checkers and word-processors :)
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junk
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response 78 of 108:
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May 9 18:08 UTC 1998 |
how to hack? www.phonelosers.org
PLA issue #1:
How to Hack a <i forget> BBS
hook and ladder method.
read, laugh, enjoy
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cytex
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response 79 of 108:
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May 19 12:34 UTC 1998 |
ok maybe this is just my opinion but have any 1 actually read the mentors last
words this is the only real deffinition of hacking any1 else that soley relies
on sombody elses work is nufin but a lamer wether he is being productive or
not tell me what u think.
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morpheus
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response 80 of 108:
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May 24 22:13 UTC 1998 |
Well, I don't have a lot to add to this, other than to correct Jan's
earlier statement that anyone with lots of technical knowledge is
immeditaly employable, and that all hackers are derilects who have no
good reason to hack. Believe it or not, there are those of us who are
poor enough to not have access to cool equipment.
I would like to ask you some questions, Jan. (Good lord, I think i am
channeling Steve McGarret from Hawaii 5-0 ;-).
First, how many 16 year olds do you think know how to administer a UNIX
system, or do other things that would make them valuable to an
employer? I am sure that a lot of those people who are actually
*original* hackers, as opposed to those who copy 8lgm exploits, can.
Jan, you made the point that many of the worlds best hackers have come
from Russia and former russian republics. Why do you think that so many
hackers (and I am talking abou _hackers_, not aol warez or codez kids)
are young? If you really want to get rid of hackers, hire them.
Second, how many of them do you think would actually get hired by a
company, even if they go in and present themselves nicely? There is
blatant discriminiation against young members of the technical elite.
Don't forget that.
Next, why do you assume that everyone has access to systems or software
that they need on their own to further their studies? Let's assume that
I wanted to learn to program, say, AS-400 systems. I live in Ypsilanti,
Michigan, and the local high school has *no* computers for students.
(No, i am not really exagerating). What if I want to learn how to use
these systems? Well, seeing as how I am not particularly rich, and my
parent unit doesn't work in a technical field, I think I am screwed
unless I steal some time on a dialup for an As-400 at a plant in
Detroit. What does it hurt if it at 1am, the plants not operating, and
I don't delete, modify, or even view any of *their* data?
Hell will freeze over before I am allowed to (legitately) tweak phone-
switches, or even just PBX's or PhoneMail systems. Obviosly, such
system experience would make me readily employable, and would ensure
that I would be more succesful than my parents. So, what does it hurt
if I hack a few AT&T switches? I haven't installed any translation taps
yet...
(Besides, you seldom hear of young techno-wizzes getting legitimate
employment, but I hear stories all the time of hacker/security-types
who are my age getting employment in a cool setting... ).
Do not lump me in with everyone else. I am a hacker, but I am not
"bad." I need to do this to learn, until I can get my internship. My
life is a bootstrapping process, and this is what I gotta do to get to
the next level.
- Andrew Christensen
(Hackers, the book by Steven Levy, btw, is not about hackers as you are
thinking of them -- it is about those people at MIT who invented chess
playing algorithms, the roots of AI, etc...).
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morpheus
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response 81 of 108:
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May 25 07:06 UTC 1998 |
Ahem. I forgot to mutter something in my previous post, so here goes:
I have seen ads for "online data backup" recently. This seemed like a
bad idea as soon as I heard the concept, but that mention of Microsoft
searching mail messages at hotmail.com made it pop back to the
forefront of my mind. Why in the *world* would *anybody* feel that
their data is "secure" if they schlep it over a net connection to some
anonymous computer somewhere, anyways? I just don't get that.
It would seem that your data is already insecure enough if you *aren't*
showing it off to strangers. People were wigging out a couple years ago
over the concept of cookies being placed into a directory by certain
websites, as they felt it posed a security risk. WHY HAS NO ONE
SCREAMED LOUDLY ABOUT THIS?! I dunno.
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kur
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response 82 of 108:
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Jun 11 20:02 UTC 1998 |
I'm trying to hack one RedHat linux 4.2. Anyone know how to get it?
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morpheus
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response 83 of 108:
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Jun 13 15:28 UTC 1998 |
Your question is much too vague.
There are many different flaws in Linux, many of which can be exploited
to allow root access.
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srw
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response 84 of 108:
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Jul 6 05:57 UTC 1998 |
Well, Andrew, I am not a hacker in the sense that you are, but rather in the
sense that Stephen Levy depicts. These two senses of the word confuse people.
I am not happy that people now use the term we used to use for our activities
to describe what you do when you break into systems for your own purposes.
I respect that you do not do harm, but I don't think that makes it OK.
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novocain
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response 85 of 108:
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Jul 7 15:33 UTC 1998 |
Well, maybe im a couple of pposts too late, but yeah... windoze actually uses
one of the fonts for the sprite in the flying windows saver... there are some
commonly avail. debug codes to change the pix. to any of the others; a one
byte alteration (since ya only gotta change the offset) ... im new here.. some
one mail me! ;)
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vhd
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response 86 of 108:
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Oct 20 19:55 UTC 1998 |
You all seem to be quite misguided on the purpose of hacking. Why,
How and who? I am a sysadmin and have had a great interest for unix, network
security. By most standards (The general public) hackers are malicious and
negative. We are not. I have bypassed security on my network several times
to cheack for holes that could couse my network some trouble. REAL hackers
are concered with preserving the time and money that sysadmins put into thier
systems. NOT with "deleting stuff" and "hacking webpages". A real hacker
is interested is network security as much as he is concered with ethics. I
cannot stand it when a "hacker" tied to break root on a server that provides
a free service I frown upon him/her. The issue of hackers on grex is not a
big one. A bunch of script kiddies will come on and eventually get bored due
to "loss of interest." The majority of these "script kiddies" are about 12-14
years old. So all those that write to this board and talk about how "elite"
they are and if you want to learn how to hack mail them. Rubish.
Dont even talk about this on a public board. Goodbye and Email me if you
would like to talk about REAL computer security, though i probly wont have
time to read it all, and might only look at some.
-vhd-
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hc
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response 87 of 108:
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Oct 21 12:53 UTC 1998 |
Hmmmm.... I think it's safe to say that anyone interested in boosting their
security knowledge is better off picking up books and reading, not emailing
people to ask the age old "how do you hack" question. As for the flying
toassters, I seem to remember that when the Bill 'n Opus screen savers came
out, there was a sceen saver that had Opus shooting down toasters with a
shotgun... They got nabbed for copyright violation though, and they had to
pull them off the shelves...
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morpheus
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response 88 of 108:
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Nov 8 03:48 UTC 1998 |
Srw,
There is nothing wrong with hacking. Really.
To those of you who think hacking (in the intrusion of computers sense)
is the root of all evil (no pun intended, and that executing a few
commands for the sole sake of getting su privs on a system that belongs
to a large corporation is akin to invading your house and raping
someone, I suggest that you get a life. Really.
I, personally, would
* be able to sleep
* be able to go on a date
* be able to eat, and most importantly
* be able to ignore it
if some miscreant invaded my companies computers, so long as their
intentions were quite obviously harmless (ie, they didn't delete
payrolls files, disconnect phonelines, etc.).
So, I would like to humbly suggest that all of you holier-than-thou
hackers get laid. F'real.
On a side note, I totally agree with hc. Occasionally, it is helpful to
have someone to ask questions of (source code CAN be really fucking
confusing at times), but all in all the best way to learn about
security is thru hands on experience (everyone reading this has a
computer or access to a computer, so get and install Linux,
Free/Open/NetBSD, xFree86, and so on -- they are all, well, FREE).
andrew
P.S.
Heh, cool, didn't know that srw was a tmrc guy! That rocks! Hmm, as I
recall, the tmrc'ers were into blueboxing... defend *that*, please.
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scott
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response 89 of 108:
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Nov 8 13:21 UTC 1998 |
Hmm... how do you *know* somebody isn't going to cause any harm? Maybe they
poke around for hours doing nothing bad, then wipe / just before leaving as
a calling card.
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morpheus
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response 90 of 108:
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Nov 9 00:02 UTC 1998 |
Well, here's an example of BORING but HARMLESS. From behaviour like the
following it is easy to see that nothing really shitty is going to be
done, probably. Of course, if you are REALLY worried, it isn't real hard
to get a call traced. I encourage all starch-suits out their to do this
and ask the hacker in question what their up to if you feel the need. It
is a bit better than calling the fbi into it.
user hacks in, changes motd, spends 14 hours in
#Boring_Losers_Jerk_Off_here_f'server on mirc, then types who and logs
off.
This is just an example, fo course.
Alternaly, they might do something like run a mathematical c program.
I used to do that when I was really young and didn't have legit access
to fast computers.
But, that rapidly grew boring, so I would usually go see a movie instead
of sticking around and doing any har,...
Which leads me to my point: besides the TMRC class of hackers, their are
two LARGE subsets of "miscreant" hackers.
Class 1: Bored kids like myself
Class 2: Professionals.
See, the way I figure it, class 1 actually helps you boring starch
collared types out, by giving your security a boot in the pants. If your
info is valuable enough to be worried (to the point of construing it the
same way as home invasion) when some bored teen takes a peek at it, then
it is damn well valuable enough for competitors with genuinly naughty
intents to break into. So, realize this and realize that class 1 hackers
help out computer securitys evolution to an extent.
Well, I gotta get back to being a starch-collar type now, good bye all.
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jimdagem
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response 91 of 108:
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Nov 9 01:45 UTC 1998 |
d00d, if you are really a hacker, don't go around showing off. 'Hey, duuuhhh,
I'm a h@(k3r! Wanna know how to do it?' Only tell when asked.
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raven
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response 92 of 108:
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Nov 11 01:04 UTC 1998 |
re #90 Why are you so interested in classifying people. There are people
who aren't starched shirts & who are in fact in fact radical like myself
that think cracking is a bad idea unless it is done for political ends.
Just breaking into a system for the hell of it is vandalism IMO. Breaking
into a military system to say out how the government wastes our money
on killing machines is an act of good conscience IMO. Ofcourse again
this is a matter of perspective <shrug>.
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morpheus
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response 93 of 108:
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Nov 11 06:05 UTC 1998 |
"unless it is done for political ends?" HOW THE FUCK does *that* make
it OK? If it is vandalism to break into a system and NOT do anything,
then it would probably be vandalism too if someone actually changed
something. No offense, but that is the worst justification I have heard
in a LONG time. And that assesment comes from me, a certified
"miscreat."
Politics is the absolute worst reason to do damage to a system, for the
simple reason that none of us have identical political ideals. While
your political views (and mine) tend to lean towards showing off what
idiots the people in the pentagon are, someone elses may lean towards
showing how they need to institute corporal punishment and prayer in
school. How would you and I feel if the Christian Coalition hacked onto
the whitehouse webpage and placed their political agenda there? Not so
hot, I presume. So, the point is, politics doesn't really justify
vandalism, certainly not in this country at least.
(Or, is it time for the revolution? ;-)
Of course, you are probably thinking of hacking politically in an
information gathering sense. That isn't really an option. For instance,
in the past I have had call records from the phone switches at military
bases. I saw that most of the numbers called were to phone sex lines
(yes, I went through and called the numbers I saw listed), BUT if I was
to distribute that information (because I am pissed that my tax dollars
go towards helping service men jerk off, and I wanted to see it
changed), I would be under risk of prosecution for having GOTTEN the
information (top secret proprty of the US Gov and all that shit) in the
first place, which would suck. So, not a lot can happen this way.
(Before you start talking about taking it to the journalists, take a
look at the hackers in the media right now and how they are portrayed,
and try to imagine a hacker deliberately doing ANYTHINg that would risk
him/her being portrated like that).
By the way, I can almost promise you that anything interesting in the
governments computers is off limits. It was a fluke of luck that got me
the phone records, and they didn't really have anything THAT
interesting on them -- besides 1-900-Wet-fuck. The governments
security (despite what the pentagon claims when they are asking for
another billion to improve computer security) is VERY high, at least on
the machines that actually have protected information.
Well, I am running on a bit, but in part one reason I classified other
groups (the starch-shirts) is because one of the starch-suits
representative srw "classified" me, which irritates me to no end, cuz I
can promise you that I am neither what you saw in the movie Hackers nor
WarGames nor Revenge of the Nerds. case in point, I wear neither pocket
protectors nor leather pants on a regular basis, and my grades don't
normally suck. All told, i think I tend more towards Matthew Broderick
as Ferris Buhler than Matther Broderick as David Lightman ;-) So, don't
get the wrong image of me: outside of work I don't spend THAT much time
in front of the computer. The time i spend AT work is done so that I
can get money to do things like travel (gotta visit my girlfriend, who
i met over the sidewalk, not over the internet). My computer is about 4
years old. Point being, I am not a nerd in the truly classical sense
(hah, betcha didn't know that their *was* such a thing as a classic
nerd).
Another justification for my classification is the fact that the
classifications I made were broad enough to be accurate. The only thing
I have done wrong is assume that srw is a starch-shirt.
fuckit, this has gone on a bit. i will post now.
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freeze0
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response 94 of 108:
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Mar 27 16:09 UTC 1999 |
i need to learn about hacking through telnet, can you please send me something
to explain at earl_steyn@hotmail.com
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