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Grex > Coop11 > #36: Increasing User Disk Space Maximum | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 111 responses total. |
rcurl
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response 64 of 111:
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Nov 13 17:53 UTC 1998 |
I don't see why a disk-space check has to be run freqhently. Disk space
use grows slowly, usually without the user really being aware of it. I
don't think we need to be aggressive or pushy about this, either. Weekly
or biweekly checks in the course of other things (backups, for example)
would be fine. I would also suggest not being aggressive about doing
something about it. Send an automated e-mail message. Call it "first
warning". State a deadline for action. Send a second warning before
the deadline is reached, as a reminder. I'm not sure what the best
"sanction" would be when the deadline is reached, but certainly the user
should still be able to access files to rm some. Perhaps shutting off
e-mail and some other resources would be sufficient.
I still think, though, that this is the wrong step at this point. First,
disk space allocation should be increased to 2 MB, and then it be made
widely know that this *will* be enforced.
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janc
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response 65 of 111:
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Nov 15 05:23 UTC 1998 |
I've always heard that turning on quotas on SunOS slows the system down
badly. I do wonder about that. It seems like it shouldn't really cost
*that* much overhead. I'm no expert, but I think it's just one extra
disk read/write every time you add a block to a file, create a file, or
truncate a file. (There might be worse issues depending on how locking
is handled with the quota files, but I'd like to think that Sun did this
intelligently.) That might have been enough to bring our previous
servers to their knees (frankly, they never got far off their knees at
the best of times), but I think it is quite possible that the Sun 4/670
would work OK with quotas on. It might at least be worth a test.
I'm not sure that we really *want* quotas on, even if we could handle
them though. The less rigid enforcement is kind of more friendly.
One possibility: set hard quotas for newusers, but take them off once a
user has been on Grex for 6 months or they become a member. Note that
the amount of disk they are allowed to use doesn't change, we just go
from software enforcement to the honor system. This should slow down
hackers trying to crash the system by filling up the disks, but it
wouldn't have as big a performance penalty as having all users on
quotas. It also allows old users a bit more flexibility, so they can go
over quota for short periods, and things like that.
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remmers
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response 66 of 111:
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Nov 15 12:21 UTC 1998 |
Interesting idea. Technically how would it work? Does SunOS support
setting quotas on a per-user basis?
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steve
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response 67 of 111:
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Nov 15 21:50 UTC 1998 |
quotas do slow the system down. Trust me. But worse, are the
problems SunOS has with quotas on a highly active filesystem. We
do *not* want to run Sun's quota code. Integrating some other
quota system into SunOS isn't a simple task, but could be done.
Unforunately Rane, disk usage (in terms of Grex--not an
individual user) can go up *very* quickly, like 60M in less
than an hour.
I'm pondering the idea of how to enforce disk limits in a
reasonable and efficiant way. I think we can do this, but we'll
spend more time looking at disk usage than I'd like. However,
I think it's come to the point where we're going to have to
do this, regardless of the details.
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scott
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response 68 of 111:
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Nov 15 22:39 UTC 1998 |
Summary of disk use issues:
1. Most users don't ever get near 1Mb.
2. Some long-time users accumulate email (or whatever) and gradually get
over 1Mb.
3. Some users create an account, subscribe to a mailing list, then never
come back. Mail spool space fills up, we have a quota there as part of the
mail software.
4. Some very few vandals deliberately fill up file systems (disks) as a
denial-of-service attack.
5. A number of one-time users transfer over huge packages like BitchX,
eggdrop, etc. and try to run. Once they give up, accounts are eventually
reaped.
6. Disk quota software penalizes all, for the transgressions of a few,
but being slow.
7. Storing data on Grex long-term is a bad idea. We've had disk bugs in
the past, and our current backup system is atrociously bad (so says backup
czar scott).
Rane, I'd be happy if you'd make some non-token donation for disk use. You'd
be free of worrying about not compensating Grex for your use, and the
Treasurer wouldn't have to process a $0.07 donation. I really doubt, though,
that anybody really cares about your specific use of space, except perhaps
in principle. I know I don't worry about your disk use.
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rcurl
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response 69 of 111:
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Nov 15 22:59 UTC 1998 |
I do get 'pestered' now and then to cut back, though I am always cutting
back (and building up). "non-token donation for disk use"...sounds like
a bribe? Since grex doesn't sell disk space, and dues are not in exchange
for any service, and donations must be given without any expectation of
anything in return....I'm stuck.
I thought that maybe your summary was working toward cracking down on
the thoughtless and accomodating the occasional over-run - but it didn't
quite get there.
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scott
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response 70 of 111:
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Nov 15 23:07 UTC 1998 |
Yeah, well, I don't have a really strong opinion. :)
What my summary does say (not very clearly) is that abusers are few, and it's
hard to have to put bars on all the windows when most of the people are not
causing any problems. :(
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aruba
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response 71 of 111:
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Nov 15 23:44 UTC 1998 |
(The treasurer is happy to process all donations, however small.)
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steve
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response 72 of 111:
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Nov 16 04:20 UTC 1998 |
There are a total of 171 accounts on Grex that are over 1M of disk;
8 of those are staff who are always going to be over given the things
they're doing. That makes for 0.64% of the accounts on Grex being over
the limit. So, there aren't many accounts over the limit, but the
problem is wading through that other 99.36% to find the hogs. As I
said before, I think we might be able to a better job of finding
the disk hogs, and should.
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janc
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response 73 of 111:
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Nov 19 19:46 UTC 1998 |
Ways increasing Grex's disks:
(1) Move the 1.7 Gig Fujitsu drive from the old machine to the new
machine. The staff is pretty much ready to completely abandon
the old machine. We can't imagine going back to it, even if the
new machine failed. We wish we had spare parts for the new
machine though. This is probably going to happen as soon as
someone takes the time.
(2) Buy another disk. We've confirmed that we aren't limited to 2 Gig
disks. We can handle disks up to 32 Gig. Currently, it looks
like SCSI disk prices are in the following neighborhood:
2 Gig $200
4 Gig $300
9 Gig $500
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lilmo
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response 74 of 111:
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Feb 6 19:42 UTC 1999 |
Re #73: (2) was done, right? Does that make (1) obselete? Are we still
concerned about the issues brought up in this item?
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janc
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response 75 of 111:
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Feb 6 20:18 UTC 1999 |
We will probably be putting some more disk on Grex real soon. We now
have a very large supply of moderately large disks, thanks to a generous
(but anonymous) donor.
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pfv
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response 76 of 111:
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Feb 6 20:21 UTC 1999 |
I thought he implied it meant work - and that labor was in short
supply?
Why bother? What's the space needed for?
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devnull
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response 77 of 111:
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Feb 6 20:47 UTC 1999 |
Re #75: If this implies grex has more disks than it needs, it might be
worth selling them in the auction, after it has been determined how
many disks grex needs for grex. I certainly would be interested
in bidding...
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steve
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response 78 of 111:
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Feb 6 22:25 UTC 1999 |
The disks we have are used 2G SCSI disks, and are not single-ended
but have the differencial interface, which not many people use. Given
that we have about 10 of them, we have the ability to put some number
of them in service and have some spares. I view these as temporary
disks more than anything else. Before long we need to spend some
money (about $500) and get a 9G disk. This will let us retire several
disks saving heat and such. Anyway, for now these will be fine.
As for why we need more disk on the system, the answer is simple.
Grex is growing, and the space we've allocated for things are too
small now. We need more room for
- mailboxes: we have nearly 13,000 active mailboxes now;
- user storage: we have about 26,000 accounts on the system;
- log file storage: with all the activity Grex has, we generate
a lot more data then we used to;
- internal areas like our directory for source code.
We have grown in every way possible and are cramped in several
areas these days.
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devnull
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response 79 of 111:
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Feb 7 00:06 UTC 1999 |
Ah, OK, differential SCSI makes them a lot less interesting for the auction.
(They might be useful, but I'd have to look into what hardware I need
to make them work.)
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steve
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response 80 of 111:
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Feb 7 00:27 UTC 1999 |
What would you pay Grex for one or two of them? I really have no
idea that they'd be worth.
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devnull
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response 81 of 111:
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Feb 7 03:48 UTC 1999 |
A random guess is maybe $50 each, but it could be off by a factor of two
either way.
I've seen an IDE disk bigger than 3 GB advertised for less than $150, I think.
The real question is how much money I'd have to spend on suitable SCSI
controllers in order for the drives to be useful. I'd buy the differential
SCSI drives if I figured it would be a reasonably cost-effective way
to build myself a RAID array, when figuring in the cost of the controller
or controllers.
The fact that the drives require differential SCSI means that I couldn't
just drop one in my sparc and have it just work (and since I recently
noticed that its fan died, I'm wondering whether the drive currently
in the machine will last forever).
Are these normal 3.5" half-hieght drives, or are they full height 5.25"?
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steve
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response 82 of 111:
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Feb 7 03:55 UTC 1999 |
$50 is likely reasonable considering that 2G IDE disks are $120,
unless you *did* see a 3G unit for $150--that would be neat to see.
These are the big fat honking heavy full-height monster disk
drives. Weapons if dropped from the roof of a building; able to
break foot bones dropped off a shelf. ;-)
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scg
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response 83 of 111:
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Feb 7 05:23 UTC 1999 |
The 3G IDE drive I have in one of my computers cost $150, new, in
mid-September. I'd guess 3G drives would be a lot cheaper than that now, if
they still exist. When I bought it it was the smallest IDE drive the store
had.
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dang
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response 84 of 111:
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Feb 7 05:43 UTC 1999 |
The smallest I've seen recently (last few weeks) is 6 gigs.
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rtg
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response 85 of 111:
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Feb 7 06:44 UTC 1999 |
I bought a Caviar 3.2G IDE from Sky-tech on Jan 9th for $126. It was the
smallest they had at the time.
BTW, the first HDD I ever bought is still running. a 10M 5.25"
half-height MFM for $200. A bargain at the time. Made my X820 the
hottest machine on the block! (oops, I'm showing my age...)
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mdw
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response 86 of 111:
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Feb 7 07:22 UTC 1999 |
I have several full-height 5.25" 5M drives. Nyah!
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devnull
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response 87 of 111:
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Feb 7 08:54 UTC 1999 |
I bought an 11GB IDE hard disk in June 98 for about $300.
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janc
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response 88 of 111:
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Feb 8 03:55 UTC 1999 |
Data point: http://www.bobjohnson.com/new_equipment/hard_drive.htm
offers a ST42400ND (the differential drive we have ten of) for $50.
I presume those are new though.
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