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Grex > Coop11 > #146: Results of the 1999 Board Election | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 90 responses total. |
remmers
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response 64 of 90:
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Dec 28 13:56 UTC 1999 |
Re #60 and #61: Right, the vote program tells you up front that you
have to be a member for your vote to count. Hopefully, people read
that information. Should it be emphasized more strongly?
Also, how do people feel about the practice of reporting non-member
votes?
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other
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response 65 of 90:
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Dec 28 15:32 UTC 1999 |
it makes for an interesting look at things. there is little the we can infer
directly from the datum, but given whatever context we can complement it with,
it could be valuable for something, if only perspective.
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dpc
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response 66 of 90:
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Dec 28 17:03 UTC 1999 |
Hm. I see that so far none of the Board members has yet admitted
his/her passionate desire to be Treasurer...
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carson
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response 67 of 90:
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Dec 28 18:33 UTC 1999 |
(I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are trying to prepare for
serving on their first board.)
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richard
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response 68 of 90:
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Dec 28 22:22 UTC 1999 |
#62,yeah but ballots can be stuffed inmember votes too-- janc, didnt
you a number of years ago buy or offer to buy people mnet memberships
in return for control of their votes in an election one year?
Its not like anyone with deep pockets couldnt do the same thing on grex?
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don
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response 69 of 90:
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Dec 29 00:10 UTC 1999 |
What's this now?
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eeyore
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response 70 of 90:
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Dec 29 01:21 UTC 1999 |
DPC: At this point, I figure that we'll get that decided at the next board
meeting all on our little own, without anybody constantly pestering us who
wants to do it. I'm sure that anybody who is interested will make his/her
interest known that night, and decisions will be made accordingly.
re: nonmember voting: I kinda like seeing the numbers of the non-member
votes...I don't know that it has any practical purpose, but it's really quite
amusing :)
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other
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response 71 of 90:
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Dec 29 02:39 UTC 1999 |
re resp:68
richard, i *really* hope you're just trying (and failing miserably) to be
funny.
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gypsi
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response 72 of 90:
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Dec 29 03:05 UTC 1999 |
Story of his life.
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keesan
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response 73 of 90:
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Dec 29 17:10 UTC 1999 |
Ten votes would cost $180. Why would anyone want to PAY to be a volunteer
board member?
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remmers
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response 74 of 90:
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Dec 29 20:33 UTC 1999 |
Re resp:68 and related - Richard has the story a little garbled,
but it's true that several years ago Jan bought memberships for
a bunch of m-netters (myself included) in order to demonstrate
the stupidity of an m-net board decision to restrict memberships
to Michigan residents. Jan was living in Texas then and suddenly
found himself disenfranchised despite years of monetary
contributions and hard staff work on m-net's behalf.
The memberships were not solicited, and Jan didn't (and of course
couldn't) require that the recipients vote any particular way, so
I don't think it qualifies as "ballot stuffing".
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janc
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response 75 of 90:
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Dec 29 22:41 UTC 1999 |
That sounds about right. I don't remember the circumstances very well at this
point, but the board was making some kind of dang-fool new restrictions on
who could vote. It may have involved separating M-Net membership from
Arbornet membership - one got you extra dial-in access, the other got you the
right to vote. I thought this would result in very few voters. There may
have been restrictions saying Texans couldn't vote. Being pissed at them,
I protested by giving them a lot of money - buying voting memberships for
a bunch of people who expressed useful opinions in the policy conference.
The intent was to load up voting roles with intelligent voters, and
simultaneously demonstrate the stupidity of restricting out-of-state voters
(though I carefully bought only non-buyable people, I could have just
bought votes for more compliant Michigan residents, like my mom). It was
a fun way to make a point, and it gained M-Net a couple hundred bucks.
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don
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response 76 of 90:
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Dec 30 19:07 UTC 1999 |
That does seem to be a good way to drive the point home, but those votes would
have been de facto yours for the asking. What prompted the disenfranchizement,
and what was the result of it (ie loss of membership or right to vote etc)?
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janc
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response 77 of 90:
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Dec 30 20:24 UTC 1999 |
I assure you, not one of those people would have voted the way I asked
just because I spent a couple bucks on their behalf. I don't think you
would have either.
I don't remember what prompted the particular forms of insanity that ran
through the M-Net board in those days. JEP might know, since I think he
was a board member at the time (by far the most sensible). Maybe they
wanted more separation between M-Net and Arbornet. Maybe they didn't
think people who were just paying for more dial-in access should get the
right to vote. Maybe they thought they'd raise more money this way. I
don't know anymore. Not sure I knew then.
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don
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response 78 of 90:
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Dec 30 22:47 UTC 1999 |
I'm glad that you'd put that much trust in my sense of honor. I'm not saying
that you could bribe them into voting the way you wanted. I'm just saying that
those were de facto your memberships, which should give you some amount of
control over them.
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don
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response 79 of 90:
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Dec 30 22:48 UTC 1999 |
Think of what would happen if somebody bought multiple memberships for
himself and you'll see the analogy I'm making.
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mdw
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response 80 of 90:
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Dec 31 00:16 UTC 1999 |
I've seen other organizations do something very like what m-net/arbornet
did. Most commonly, this arises out of a "generation gap" as the old
generation falls out of touch with the new generation, and doesn't trust
the new generation. In the case of m-net, there was a worse problem:
m-net had formed out of the merger of m-net & arbornet, and so you had
the arbornet folks who probably honestly thought they were on a noble
crusade to do je-ne-sais-quoi, and thought of m-net as being primarily a
cash cow to support that. Rather than try to involve the m-net
membership in those activities (which might have done some real good),
or at least spin those activities off as self-sufficient entities, they
tried to spin m-net off & make it a distinct, but subordinate entity.
Basically, it was one of the classic power plays, & I suspect one of the
things that fueled a lot of the politicking was the fact that m-net did
at that point have a fairly substantial cash flow and a good reputation.
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janc
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response 81 of 90:
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Dec 31 05:51 UTC 1999 |
I almost agree with Marcus's evaluation, but not quite. My perspective
on things is a bit different. As I remember, things went kind of like
this:
- OAFS buy M-Net from Dave, and almost immediately merge with Arbornet.
Neither organization brings much of any money into the deal, though
both bring loyal followings of users. Arbornet has 501c3 status and
a theoretical committment to doing good deads (if not necessarily
much of a track record in actually doing them). M-Net lacks that
ideology.
- First few post-merger boards are actually pretty decent. M-Net is
doing OK, board wins a substantial grant to pursue the development
of a K-12 system. This grant is where Arbornet's big pot of money
comes from - not from M-Net but from the charitable do-gooders, who
in fact, don't correspond particularly closely to the set of people
who came from Arbornet, though part of the inspiration for seeking
such goals certainly came from Arbornet's history.
- The first of several big board purges hits. Each purge leaves behind
a weaker board and stronger cohorts of disillusioned non-board
members. There are two main factions among the non-board members -
those who want to emphasis charitable missions like the (neglected)
K-12 project, and those who just want to run a BBS. The 501c3 status
becomes the main club the factions use to beat each other with and
especially to pummel the board members with. Though the factions
are associated with Arbornet vs M-Net in many people's minds, the
people involved in the Arbornet faction aren't particularly people
who came from Arbornet.
- A board develops which consists of people who don't clearly fit
either faction. In fact, it's hard to tell what they stand for
because they never venture to say anything in public, being too
shell-shocked from all the abuse they get. They get secretive and
paranoid, doing things like publically pretending to cooperate with
Grex and HVCN on a grant proposal, while secretly preparing a
separate proposal. They spasmotically make sudden and dramatic
policy changes meant to appease one faction or the other, but always
upset everyone, partly because they never discuss these changes in
public in advance of making them. Among all the silence from the
board, the disappeance of financial reports seems only natural.
I'd moved to Grex by this stage in the proceedings, and stopped
following M-Net politics closely. My impression is that the financial
crisis cleared the decks to some extent, and leadership has improved
markedly.
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mdw
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response 82 of 90:
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Dec 31 11:58 UTC 1999 |
I never heard a particularly good account of how m-net got all its money
- just that there was a time when they were definitely doing pretty
good. I still still think a good % came from m-net members though - for
a while, they had a *lot* of members and users.
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jep
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response 83 of 90:
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Dec 31 16:19 UTC 1999 |
The decision to restrict out of state people from being Arbornet members
was due to an effort to make Arbornet serve the residents of Michigan,
and be identified with them. It was not a good idea, as has been noted,
but few things going on for M-Net/Arbornet at the time were good ideas.
It came about because we were being told constantly we were not
fulfilling our 501(c)(3) charter, and were being panicked into thinking
we would become personally financially liable for -- something -- if we
didn't do better. It started with Aaron Larson and Dan Napolitano, but
other people picked up the idea, too. It was an enormously depressing
time to be a Board member. I never did really understand all that went
on from the users at that time. I don't understand it now. The Board
was willing to accept about anything that resembled direction and
leadership.
The merger between Arbornet and M-Net was Iain O'Cain's suggestion, as
the sole regular user of both systems. Arbornet had a stash of cash
(about $2000) and a working Altos computer. They had no users; the
user base was 4 people. M-Net had no cash at all, the Board used to
celebrate patronships received at Board meetings. And M-Net's Altos was
dying. But we had all those users. There wasn't much opposition from
either side about merging.
The merger paid off for M-Net, as it got us in NEW Center. This
provided cheap rent and a stable residence, meeting space, access to
other non-profits, office equipment such as a copier... it was a great
thing. Shortly thereafter we got the K-12 grant from the AA Area
Community Foundation. This was not a financial gain; every penny was
spent on PCs to distribute to schools; but it gave Arbornet the standing
of having received a grant.
The K-12 project was an effort to get an Internet connection through
Merit; we'd provide all of these services to K-12 teachers, including
free computers, and M-Net would get to piggyback on the Internet
connection. Actually it wasn't really an Internet connection we were
looking for; none of the Board members knew what the Internet was. It
was dial-in access through Merit, providing access from all over the
state. We had a 9600 baud connection allowing 3 dial-ins, but had
visions of M-Net being a state-wide conferencing system. The Merit part
fell through as they weren't going to fund it; it would have cost
Arbornet thousands of dollars per month to pay for what we had
envisioned.
Time passed, we got an Internet connection from MSEN, K-12 died for lack
of any interest whatsoever from anyone. Dan Napolitano and Aaron Larson
had been looking into compliance issues for 501(c)(3)'s over a few
months. I had paid little attention. There was a Board election; Dan
had expected to be elected president, but the incoming Board members had
other ideas and elected someone else (Greg Russo). Dan interpreted the
election for president as being fixed, and led the exodus from the
Board, which took away 5 Board members, out of 7. That's when the
501(c)(3) compliance issues came into the public's attention, because
Dan and Aaron pushed it very hard. Arbornet didn't recover from the
aftermath of this mess until this year (if indeed it has done so even
now).
During the following summer, Arbornet built it's funds to $12,000 in the
bank by selling "Internet access accounts", along with the really good
M-Net manual. But at the same time, the Board was being harangued by
Dan and Aaron, and support from the traditional users was falling as a
result.
The HVCN/Arbornet/Grex effort to collaborate on a large grant project
came during the following year, I think. Probably few remember it, but
clearly Marcus still views it as a sore spot. HVCN, Arbornet and Grex
worked together on a grant proposal which would have provided a lot of
community information via computers. It was envisioned as a $600,000
grant. Arbornet was the only 501(c)(3) organization at the start of
this project, though HVCN got certified while working on it. HVCN had a
lot of community leaders and non-profit knowledgeable people, such as
Arnold Barr and Linda Vengroff. Grex brought the others together, and
had a terrific base of technically knowledgeable people.
Arbornet never had a clear purpose for being part of this project,
though. I mean the Board never agreed on why they wanted to be in it.
What purpose Arbornet had didn't jibe with what the HVCN people had in
mind (kiosks in malls and shopping centers). Arbornet pulled out at the
last minute, causing enormous difficulties for the project, and hard
feelings. Arbornet also said it intended to submit it's own proposal,
causing even more hard feelings. It never really did so; having no
vision for a grant proposal, it shouldn't have said it would.
Arbornet Boards have often been called secretive and conspiring and
things like that. Did it really seem that way to you, Jan? In truth
they were muddled and confused and clueless and directionless. On the
Boards I was on, we wanted M-Net to keep working, and to do what we
thought we could and should in other areas. Occasionally someone would
come along with some idea of what we ought to and could do -- Jim Knight
in particular. The rest of us were trying to help with the work, and
make the best decisions we could, and kind of going along for the ride.
Occasionally someone got elected to the Board who really just wanted to
be popular with M-Netters. I never knew of anyone who wanted to
participate in a conspiracy of any kind, or do any harm. Darned few had
any kind of agenda of any kind.
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richard
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response 84 of 90:
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Dec 31 16:23 UTC 1999 |
The k-12 program grant mnet got sounds like it was a colossal waste of
taxpayer money-- the board probably misrepresented in its application
the level of support for and committment to this program among mnet
members. Why did arbornet ever have to be anything *more* than mnet
anyway?
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jep
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response 85 of 90:
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Dec 31 16:40 UTC 1999 |
I never saw the application form for the K-12 project, so I don't know
what it said, Richard. I can say this, though: the $7500 grant was from
the Ann Arbor Area Community Foundation, a non-government non-profit
which receives it's funding from private donations and public grants.
It's budget is a lot larger than $7500, but I don't know how big
exactly. (It makes a couple of hundred thousand dollars of grants per
year.) The Board didn't know what the interest level was from the
users, or what participation level would be needed from them.
Arbornet's charter, as filed with the IRS in 1985, called for it being a
source of community information as well as discussion. The Arbornet
that was created 14 years ago was supposed to be a lot different than
the Arbornet which actually existed in 1993.
M-Net merged with Arbornet because it was severely short of money and in
immediate danger of dying, and because those of us trying to keep it
going expected wonderful things to come from being part of a 501(c)(3).
We were naive without question. Everyone is naive about a thing when
they do it for the first time.
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mdw
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response 86 of 90:
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Jan 1 01:35 UTC 2000 |
Actually, I haven't said *anything* to anyone about the HVCN grant
project in many months, if not years, and it's not a huge glaring sore
point with me. Sorry, John, but you've pinned the tail on the wrong
donkey with that one. The only extent to which I care about that is
that it's one of a number of past incidents where m-net was, um, less
than friendly to grex. It's unfortunate, but it's no big deal; it just
means grex & mnet are separate, independent, different, and that's not
necessarily a bad thing.
So far as the K12 project, I know it wasn't true there was "no
interest"; I attended one arbornet board meeting where there clearly was
someone who was seriously interested in doing something with the K12
project, and the board just as definitely interested in discouraging
this person. A good part of the discouragement process seemed to
involve a rather amazing amount of bureaucracy, whether that was the
cause or a consequence of the process I can't say. This arbornet
meeting was also interesting as it was at the tail end of a long period
of financial secrecy. It may have been the result of muddled confusion,
but if so, I would have to say it was the result of deliberate willful
muddled confusion, because there was certainly no lack of interest or
concern among the members. It's all water under the bridge today, but I
think m-net is still hurting pretty badly from the consequences of this,
and they are going to have to work hard over there to recover from the
effects.
I do wish m-net the best of luck in getting back on their feet and
gaining some stability.
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janc
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response 87 of 90:
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Jan 1 20:58 UTC 2000 |
It was me, not Marcus, that mentioned the grant proposal. At the time I
was involved only with M-Net, not Grex, but I was seriously pissed at
the Arbornet board of that. I don't remember if Arbornet actually did
submit their own grant proposal, they did secretly submit their own
separate letter of intent (which had to be sent long before the proposal
could). They then participated in joint planning meetings, and then
announced that they weren't going to continue in the joint proposal, but
where submitting their own separate competing proposal. I had no
personal involvement with the other systems, but felt it was disgraceful
for "my" system to behave that way.
I also never believed there was a conspiracy of board members. I
believed that the level of poison and acrimony directed at the board
members was so great that they didn't dare make themselves larger
targets by saying anything. There were periods of years where most
board members never said anything subtantive in the conferences (jep
was, as I recall, the single exception). Not that saying anything would
have accomplished much except having people beat on them personally
instead of on the board in general. The atmosphere there was really
bad. The board failed to save a bad situation, but I don't really blame
the board very much - I'm not sure I could have done much better (though
if I hadn't been in Texas at the time, I might have tried).
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krj
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response 88 of 90:
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Jan 1 23:15 UTC 2000 |
Hmm, this has become an m-net item. jep's resp:83 tracks my memories
pretty closely -- I was only a spectator though -- except that I thought
keats resigned because the board would not follow his leadership on
the 501(c)3 issue.
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