response 57 of 123:

Jun 29 13:10 UTC 2000

Opinion noted, but disagreed with.  Web access is a key to survival
of systems like Grex in this day and age.

From the discussion so far, there appears to be a rough concensus
that it's okay to index conferences if people have advance warning.
Okay, I'm about to propose a new conference, and part of the
proposal will be that it be web-searchable.  Look for the
proposal in a day or two.

response 59 of 123:

Jul 2 14:55 UTC 2000

I'm not thrilled with the idea either, but I haven't really made up my mind
yet.  I wouldn't want to see anything smaller than whole items indexed in
any case.

response 65 of 123:

Jul 4 18:53 UTC 2000

My recollection is that, back when the conferences were opened up to
the web, the fw of the sex conference effectively erased & restarted
her cf because she couldn't see any other way to cover the butts of
folks who might not even be around anymore to decide whether they 
wanted what they'd said in the sex cf to be available on the web....
this got some of the users in that cf extremely angry...

My current thought would be to make web-indexing of cf's a feature
available ONLY in new cf's (rolled cf's count as new), require that
a warning appear at the end of the cf's login screen, and make sure
that linked items aren't a backdoor...then see how it works out from
there.

response 67 of 123:

Jul 6 12:56 UTC 2000

(If anyone does decide to open an indexed conference, then there may be
additional delays in getting it started while I figure out exactly how
to make it work.)

response 69 of 123:

Jul 6 17:49 UTC 2000

        "And, what you post is stored forever."

response 71 of 123:

Jul 6 18:24 UTC 2000

"and if that wasn't enough, people just here while there other system is down
will spend much of your time trying to convince you that this is all a big
deal, even though their version got voted down."

response 73 of 123:

Jul 6 20:27 UTC 2000

"And yet others will cling to the issue like spilled crude oil on baby seals"

response 75 of 123:

Jul 7 21:51 UTC 2000

You know, I've already gotten email from Grex users asking if I'm going to
sue, and wanting to be part of the lawsuit.  Keep pushing, and I'll change
my mind and say yes.  You guys are wrong, what you're doing violates
copyright, and you'll only be allowed to keep doing it until someone cares
enough to bankrupt you in Federal court.

You can keep yammering about how cool Grex democracy is, or about how people
who haven't sent you money don't deserve to have an opinion, or even about
how trivial the issue is -- but you're violating people's legal rights.  I
don't think you should be proud of that.

(And believe me, all of the items where you guys have talked about the issue,
and ignored the problem, would be entered in evidence at the trial to show
that your infringement was willfull and deliberate, and possibly even
malicious.  Ironically enough.  So keep on keeping on, guys.)

response 77 of 123:

Jul 8 01:19 UTC 2000

(Nobody has said "people who haven't sent [Grex] money don't
deserve to have an opinion.")

Three points:

(1) Joe, you specialize in copyright and intellectual property
    law.  Ergo, your opinion has to carry some weight.

(2) The members voted a policy which you believe to violate
    people's legal rights.

(3) I believe that Grex should not violate people's legal rights.

So if the policy voted by the members is indeed illegal, the
board should override it.  We can't honor a vote for an illegal
policy.  Another vote would not settle the issue of whether the
current policy is legal, so I don't see the point in taking
one.  It would also not settle the question of what range of
options Grex has in conforming to copyright law (other options
were discussed besides the ones voted on), a question which I
have become rather interested in as a result of discussion on
this issue.  My personal opinion that the current law, if it is
as you describe, is a bad law is not necessarily relevant.
    
My recommendation at this point would be that the board
undertake to educate itself by consulting an attorney who is
knowledgeable about both copyright law and electronic
communications.  This would be a responsible thing to do.

I would also *hope* that it remains possible for low-overhead
bbs systems like Grex and M-Net, neither of which have deep
pockets, can continue to operate without excessive fear of
legal liability.  If this copyright issue is a trap, what other
traps might there be that we non-lawyer types don't know about
and that someone with an axe to grind could exploit to bankrupt
us?  I hope that running a bbs doesn't become so fraught with
liability that the little guys like Grex and M-Net can't afford
the risk, and we the field to the big boys like AOL.

response 79 of 123:

Jul 8 05:26 UTC 2000

I think it's possible to get away with quite a bit, provided you're acting
in good faith (which you aren't in this case) and are willing to fix problems
once they're pointed out to you (which remains to be seen).

Is what you're doing "illegal," in the sense of violating a criminal statute?
No.  Copyright violations permit the copyright holder to file a civil suit
seeking damages, an injunction, or both.  (There is such a thing as a criminal
copyright violation, but I don't think what Grex is doing qualifies.)  Are
you violating people's copyrights?  Yes, as soon as someone asks you to remove
their material and you refuse as your policy requires you to.

Re #76:  What would be the point?  The Paying Members have spoken.

Re #77:  Consulting an attorney is a good idea.  There are even a few who
         participate on Grex and have not been part of this debate, so they
         know the environment well and shouldn't be biased.

Re #78:  I've said this before, but I should say it again:  I have a J.D.
         and significant Net law experience, as well as coursework and
         some practical contact with intellectual property issues, but I
         am not an attorney.  I haven't taken the bar yet (and may never,
         because I'm pretty busy consulting and don't need to be an attorney
         to do what I do).  (Mandatory disclaimer, along with "Everything
         I have said on this subject is personal opinion, not legal advice.
         Go get a lawyer with relevant expertise.")

response 81 of 123:

Jul 8 07:33 UTC 2000

Would you care to comment on which specific things you didn't like?