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| Author |
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| 25 new of 220 responses total. |
scg
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response 56 of 220:
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Feb 2 00:40 UTC 1999 |
I don't think we should move either.
If Flying Dutchman doesn't have the authority to terminate the lease, they
don't have the authority to terminate the lease. So far, we've had a couple
of bizarre run-ins with them, but for the most part they've left us alone.
We've also had nothing but pleasant dealings with the Van Fossen family, as
far as I know.
I like Mary's approach to this -- assuming the lease we got from Flying
Dutchman is just a standard lease with no giant problems, telling them that
we'd like to work out a deal and asking to get the terms negotiated fairly
quickly, so that if something does go wrong, we will have time to recover from
that.
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mdw
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response 57 of 220:
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Feb 2 01:56 UTC 1999 |
Flying Dutchman is the property owner's agent. That means they have the
full authority to negociate contracts, sign and terminate leases, etc.
In the normal course of events, it would not matter who the real
property owner is; it is only a fluke of history that we happen to know
who the real owner is. Yes, I'm sure this is only a matter of
"mis-communication", but wars have been started over less than that.
This isn't the first "mis-communication" either. I don't think it's a
problem with Mark's verbal skills either; he strikes me as one of the
least confrontational people I know. This problem isn't going to go
away by our wishing it away, and it certainly ain't going to go away by
our hiring lawyers.
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valerie
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response 58 of 220:
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Feb 2 04:29 UTC 1999 |
This response has been erased.
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janc
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response 59 of 220:
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Feb 2 05:43 UTC 1999 |
I generally think that things work better when Grex has just one person
talking to a given outside organization. We function internally as a
disorganized mob of volunteers, but trying to handle our business
relationships in that way just makes a mess. It's best to keep just one
or two point people (while keeping everyone else informed).
So I'm perfectly comfortable with the condition Mary set in resp:55. I
think she'd be a good contact person.
From what I've seen Susan say, I don't think she has a very good
understanding of what is going on here. She has almost certainly never
seen the room and may have inaccurate ideas of what it is worth. The
previous tenant used it as a place to pile trash. We spent a few days
dragging stuff to the dumpster and cleaning the place up before we could
move in. It's a rather large closet, windowless and cheerless. It
could be used as a tiny office, but anyone who had to sit there eight
hours a day would probably succumb to depression and cut their throat
within a month. I also don't think she understand how we are "metering"
electricity. I think she is visualizing something like the meters on
normal buildings. It is possible that we can set up something like
that, but even then she'd have to trust us to read the number and report
it right. I'd normally consider it the landlords responsibility to set
up a meter if they want the electricity metered.
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janc
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response 60 of 220:
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Feb 2 05:44 UTC 1999 |
Actually, if they'd agree to a higher fixed rent that *includes*
electricity, I might consider it an acceptable deal. Most of the leases
in the building include electricity, so it would put us in a more normal
basis.
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remmers
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response 61 of 220:
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Feb 2 12:32 UTC 1999 |
Considering the expense of moving, the difficulty of finding
suitable accommodations (remember what we've been through in
the past on that), and the various good points about our current
premises -- convenient location, 24-hour access, reasonable
security, low rent -- I'd really like to see if a liveable deal
can be worked out to stay where we are.
Mary's offer to be the point person with Susan works fine for
me. I agree that there should be one person doing the talking.
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aruba
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response 62 of 220:
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Feb 2 15:13 UTC 1999 |
It works for me, too. I think Mary should get the sample lease and letter
from Valerie.
The issues we need clarified before we can sign anything are:
- What will be the rent
- If the electricity is to be paid separately, what kind of meter statement
is she looking for (will a reading from our own meter do, or do we need
something from the power comany? Do we need to have our meter officially
calibrated or something like that?)
- Do we need to pay the $33 they say we owe from last August and September?
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dpc
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response 63 of 220:
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Feb 2 20:12 UTC 1999 |
I *hope* something can be worked out. But as a lawyer, my opinion is
that we presently have *no* rights to any kind of lease. We are starting
from nothing. Legally, what happens (assuming Flying Dutchman wants
to go that far) is that after the May deadline FD sends us a 30-day
notice that our tenancy has been terminated, using an official State
Court Administrative Office form. Then, once the 30 days pass, they
sue us for possession. We have *no* defense, since our previous
lease has been terminated.
Good luck, Mary! 8-)
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janc
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response 64 of 220:
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Feb 2 20:18 UTC 1999 |
We may not have a right to a lease, but if you think it is easy for them
to find someone who wants to rent that room, think again. Whatever they
say, they'd prefer to keep us rather than have to find a new tenant or
leave the room vacant. To a degree, this is just an attempt to see how
much they can bully out of us without actually driving us away. I think
its an instinctual response - here's someone sending us a puny little
check each month. Surely we can squeeze a bit more out of them.
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steve
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response 65 of 220:
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Feb 2 21:04 UTC 1999 |
We might not have any rights per se Dave, but it is not clear that FD
can get rid of us without the consent of the buildings de facto owner,
who in fact likes us.
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mary
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response 66 of 220:
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Feb 3 01:30 UTC 1999 |
What are we currently paying per month for electricity and when did we
last meter our use? What are the dimensions of the pumpkin,
approximately? Mark, can I get a copy of the IRS letter stating we are a
501(c)3 organization? What is that disputed $33 about?
I'm going to try to set up an appointment, with Susan, at our
earliest convenience. I will make it clear I'm not empowered to
make any decisions or negotiate terms. I'll simply be there to
get answers to some of our questions, make sure she knows
a little about our organization, and answer (or get answers to)
any questions she might have.
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steve
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response 67 of 220:
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Feb 3 02:02 UTC 1999 |
The Pumpkin is about 11 x 11 or maybe 11 x 10.5.
I think we ought to have a meeting before you talk with this
person, Mary.
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aruba
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response 68 of 220:
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Feb 3 04:09 UTC 1999 |
We currently pay $66.36 per month for electricity. I can't find the record of
when Scott actually measured our usage, but maybe he can. I believe it was in
July, becasue that fits with what I did about it: I informed the landlords
at the beginning of September that as of August, our electricity payment was
changing. The $33 is the difference between our old payment and our new one
times 2, because they charged us the old rate for August and September, and
we paid the new rate.
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janc
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response 69 of 220:
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Feb 3 04:47 UTC 1999 |
General note on how usage is measured (I'm probably not the best person
to be writing this): We have a meter that we hook up to each of our
machines in terms. It tells us how much electricity that gadget uses
per hour. We add that up over all gadgets, and multiply by the length
of a month to estimate our power usage. This only works because
basically each gadget is either always on or always off. We are turning
things on and off much. We can only measure one gadget at a time. We
don't have any way of leaving something hooked up that totals up usage
over the whole month, like traditional electric meters do. We might be
able to develop something like that. It would cost us time and money to
do so.
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krj
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response 70 of 220:
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Feb 3 05:29 UTC 1999 |
Possible question for FD: What arrangement with respect to the
electricity would make them happy?
If we are measuring $66 and FD says they want $80, it's probably
not worth a move costing a kilobuck. Just to pick some example numbers.
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rcurl
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response 71 of 220:
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Feb 3 05:32 UTC 1999 |
If that room is otherwise unrentable - we should ask for a rent reduction
(after lining up an alternative location......).
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mary
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response 72 of 220:
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Feb 3 10:45 UTC 1999 |
I'm not really interested in making a big deal about this meeting, with
briefing sessions and such. I'm not going in with an aggressive attitude,
a list of demands, or posturing on how we don't need their puny space. I
plan to be friendly and open, asking necessary questions, and sharing some
about what Grex is about and our simple needs. If this sounds scary to
anyone then I'm not the person to send in.
Thanks for the info on how our electric usage is metered - that was my
understanding. Does the amount we pay monthly take into consideration
utility taxes and the frequently changing rates?
I'm offering to do this because I *really* don't want to see us have to
move. I would have no problem whatsoever backing off on my offer to do
some fact-finding if the feeling is someone else should step in. Really,
I'd understand.
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mdw
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response 73 of 220:
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Feb 3 11:15 UTC 1999 |
The thing I would worry about is making some sort of commitment (like staying
there a year), then discovering that our method of measuring electricity
doesn't satisfy them, or the air conditioning breaks, or something. The thing
that is essential to making any good business relationship work is "good will";
the willingness to make things work to the benefit of the other party. Without
that, no amount of effort to "communicate", legalese in the contract, or
lawyers, is going to make things work. From Mark's description, above, as well
as various rumours I'm starting to hear, I'm not at all convinced "good will"
exists here. In fact, I've heard there may be some "interesting" articles
about Flying Dutchman in the Observer or other local newspaper, which we ought
to do some research to find, before making any decisions or commitments
relative to Flying Dutchman.
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davel
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response 74 of 220:
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Feb 3 12:37 UTC 1999 |
I've never actually seen the Pumpkin, but from everything that's been said
it would be rentable for storage. We should not be assuming that they
couldn't find someone to rent it. However, if *they're* assuming that it
could be rented as office space or something like that, they need to learn
the facts. There's a fairly good difference in rental rates between the two.
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steve
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response 75 of 220:
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Feb 3 12:58 UTC 1999 |
Mary, what you are saying doesn't sound scary at all. I like it.
I only think that it would be a good idea to meet, first.
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remmers
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response 76 of 220:
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Feb 3 14:03 UTC 1999 |
It doesn't sound scary to me either. I'd point out that Mary has done
this kind of thing for Grex before and has an excellent track record at
it. So I'm inclined to trust her judgement and good sense. STeve, if
there are specific concerns you have, perhaps you could share them in
email, rather than see us go to a full-blown meeting?
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dpc
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response 77 of 220:
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Feb 3 16:33 UTC 1999 |
Mary's meeting with FD doesn't scare me, either. It's an excellent
first step. STeve, FD has the "apparent authority" to act. We don't
have access to the contract under which they are operating. The
title to the building is in the *estate* of the deceased. Is there
a contract between the estate and FD? We don't know. Who speaks
for the estate? Technically, the "personal representative" of the
estate. Who is it? We don't know. How are the heirs involved?
We don't know. What happens if one heir (our friend) tries to beat
up on the estate, the personal representative, or FD? We don't know.
My rash is getting worse...8-)
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richard
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response 78 of 220:
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Feb 3 23:12 UTC 1999 |
yeah maybe mary can work this out. perhaps this woman just misinterpreted
the tone in Aruba's voice and had the misimpression that he harbored
negative or hostile thoughts toward her or about the situation, and as
some people will do, reacted to perceived hostility *with* hostility.
some people are more sensitive than others. if mary talks to her woman to
woman, with a nice soothing friendly, non-hostile voice, perhaps she will
react differently.
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scott
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response 79 of 220:
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Feb 4 00:27 UTC 1999 |
Heh. Mark is about as non-threateing as they come. My guess would be that
she figured a little hostility would buy her some leverage.
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aruba
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response 80 of 220:
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Feb 4 00:42 UTC 1999 |
Scott sent me mail to the effect that the power was measured sometime
August 9th. It must have been the date of the last change to the system that
was in July (or earlier). I'm sure we didn't really use the extra power they
charged us for in August and September, but it might not be worth making a
big deal about to avoid paying for it. Anyway, it's a bargaining chip.
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