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| Author |
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| 25 new of 191 responses total. |
keesan
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response 50 of 191:
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Jan 30 23:26 UTC 2013 |
One or more 3-way switches (two in each of two boxes) may be wired wrong.
Four wires in one box, three in another (in conduit so it is not easy to
trace what goes where). All white wires look similar. Maybe we can
trace it out and add colored tape.
At one point one switch turned on all four instead of just one light.
Now that things are 'fixed' no lights go on.
When this works we will have 350W of warm white, one yellow and one maybe dark
purple light. Jim gave us his collection of unwanted incandescents to use
for testing (and heating). 3-way bulbs, 150-200W, green, red.... I should
not need to use the space heater at all with 8 incandescent bulbs averaging
100W instead of three 40W fluorescents.
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keesan
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response 51 of 191:
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Jan 31 01:15 UTC 2013 |
My Basic Wiring book says if the lights do not work, first make sure they are
plugged in and try a new bulb, then a new switch, loose wires, or fixture.
We checked bulbs, wires, and fixtures. And all the switches repeatedly.
We got to the point where the breaker did not trip, and one switch turned
on all instead of one light, then got a pair of 3-way switches to work
properly but not the 4-way switch.
The travelers on the 4-way switch were reversed so it would turn off
but not turn on a light. Now it lets you turn on/off the dining area
light from the kitchen area. It is supposed to control the kitchen
area lights from the kitchen area.
The travelers (red and black wires connecting 3-way switches) in both
boxes also need reversing to fix this other problem. For 4 switches
So all 5 switches were wired wrong. One of the whites is a black.
This only took a few hours to diagnose (compared with a few days to
wire in the first place). We labelled the south-side-light wires
with yellow tape but that just got reversed too.
We color coded the switches - ivory for south and white for north.
The south-side light now works but the north-side ones are tripping
the breaker. One white wire was hot rather than neutral (it
was supposed to be labelled with black tape). Taped and fixed.
Now the south-side light does not go on. The travelers got themselves
mixed up in the box again. It has been a long day.
South light now works from both 3-way switches.
North lights work from 4-way switch (purple is very dim) but not
from either 3-way switch. ("What the..").
Tightening up the wires in the 4-way switch fixed it. Probably they
got loose one of the times it got taken apart. (Created a new problem
when fixing the old ones).
Just three switch boxes and a fixture to put back together.
There are only five more pairs of 3-way switches in the house ;=)
And maybe 4 more motion sensors (and 7 smoke alarms....).
The good thing about this is we are here after dark and can test the
third attempt at paired motion sensors in automatic mode. The porch
is as warm as the house so we can leave the door open to turn the
breaker on and off every few minutes.
It is not raining or snowing yet and I have cold macaroni to eat when
I get back after 10 hours here. My builder is pretty much in his
usual cheery mood. At 4 pm I promised him a bag of chips when the
kitchen lights were working. It is 8:15 now.
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nharmon
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response 52 of 191:
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Jan 31 02:47 UTC 2013 |
See, a physicist would respond to a household electrical discussion
regarding current flow with, "Not with AC. The current oscillates"
without realizing that when it comes to electrical safety, it REALLY
matters that you wire hot, neutral, and ground properly.
Thinking that current just oscillates, one might not take care and
accidentally reverse the hot and ground on some light switch. After all
it works, right? You flip the switch off, the light goes off. Flip it
on, it comes back on. But little do you know that that light fixture is
constantly being energized even when your switch is off. And if someone
goes to do some work on it, thinking the switch has turned off the
power,...well that is an accident waiting to happen.
I've done a good deal of home remodeling, but the one thing I do not
play games with is electrical. There is a right way for everything
electrical, and a LOT of wrong ways. And the wrong ways can kill you. It
always pays to have someone who knows what they're doing.
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keesan
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response 53 of 191:
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Jan 31 03:03 UTC 2013 |
You are supposed to unscrew a fuse or turn off a breaker before working on
light fixtures, not just turn off the switch.
I will make sure everything gets labelled from now on (and get my friend some
better reading glasses at the dollar store).
We turned off the lighting circuit breaker overnight to inspect everything
again in the daylight (which will NOT be morning tomorrow).
The third outside motion sensor works as designed. Or it would if we had
not turned the breaker off.
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tonster
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response 54 of 191:
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Jan 31 04:25 UTC 2013 |
Labeling really does no one any good in 30 years when the next person
who owns the home goes to do some work and electrocutes themselves
because they didn't read the label, thinking "only an idiot would make
ground hot".
It seems like you'd do well to invest in a hot plate and/or bread
machine. You could make a loaf of bread so you could have warm bread
for breakfast/lunch every day. Set it the night before so that it's
ready in the morning, or set it when you get there in the morning so
it's ready in the afternoon. Then just bring some lunchmeats or
something to make sandwiches. Seems like you're making your own
problems for meals.
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nharmon
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response 55 of 191:
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Jan 31 05:17 UTC 2013 |
resp:53 Yes, it is a best practice to turn off the power when working on a
circuit. It is also a best practice to wire circuits in the order of
neutral, ground, then hot. Or was it ground, then neutral, then hot?
See...this is when it pays to have an expert. :) The point is that some
day, someone else might be living in your home, and he/she may not follow
best practices.
As an aside, ask an electrician if he/she has ever seen a circuit breaker
stay closed in the open position. There is a reason why they carry a test
pen to verify the power is off.
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rcurl
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response 56 of 191:
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Jan 31 05:52 UTC 2013 |
Re #55: "But little do you know that that light fixture is
constantly being energized even when your switch is off." (If the switch is
wired in the netural wire.).
It is interesting that while electrical power comes to a home on two
wires, "neutral" and "hot", the "neutral" wire is connected to a solid
ground (i.e., soil) at the power entry point, usually a cold water pipe.
So the "neutral" and "ground" wire to boxes are both in effect ground
wires. This also means that some of the current serving the home flows
through the soil around the home (depending on the soil constituents and
wetness), and therefore the ground and neutral wires can be at a voltage
above "ground" elsewhere, like at someone else's home.
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tod
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response 57 of 191:
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Jan 31 06:10 UTC 2013 |
When in doubt, lick the wire like a 9 volt battery
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bellstar
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response 58 of 191:
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Jan 31 08:28 UTC 2013 |
Re #56:
The distinction between ground and neutral is vital. That's why this
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device
is not the same as this
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_Breaker
Nharmon's point is solid that keesan should seek a qualified electrician's
service or at least get detailed written advice from one and follow it to the
word.
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keesan
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response 59 of 191:
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Jan 31 10:01 UTC 2013 |
Jim is trained as an electrician and worked as an apprentice electrician for
a few years and is supervising from a distance and drawing up diagrams of how
to wire. I need to follow my friend around and make sure he follows the
instructions such as labelling things before you start. I will ask him to
get some more colored tape since the K and D labels on the cable housings did
not seem to keep things straight. And we will check each switch instead of
waiting to check five at once. Only two bathroom switches.
If it is not safe for Jim to go there
before we get inspected I will hire an electrician to check everything over
first. We already had one stop by for an hour and tell us to add ground bars
to the electric panel and be sure to leave 6" wire in the boxes - he said the
rest looked okay. Everything was wired correctly until now except for one
loose wire in a junction box. Yesterday the errors probably multiplied
while redoing things repeatedly after too long a day.
We are wiring up switches, outlets, and fixtures temporarily before rough
inspection to test that it all works, rather than just leaving wires dangling
to be hooked up later. (This also gives us light and power for a few months).
Most of it needs to be undone, wall and ceiling boards put up with holes for
the wires to go through, then redone (with different boxes and fixtures).
I presume in standard construction you put the boxes in before the wallboard
and we are putting them surface mounted.
We own several hotplates and bread machines but don't have space to set up
a kitchen there and it is inconvenient to wash dishes in dehumidifier water.
I don't want to add more humidity either - it finally got down to 60%
after several days when we did not add any mortar to the walls.
I get this morning off to cook (unless Jim insists on typing things instead).
I am still waking up for a few hours in the middle of the night from the
stress but don't feel like getting up to cook then.
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keesan
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response 60 of 191:
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Jan 31 15:16 UTC 2013 |
Jim said he printed out a CAD drawing of how to wire every switch and every
single wire was supposed to be labelled as to which screw it went to, with
either red or black. Yellow was reserved for interconnect (?). I am supposed
to somehow understand these drawings and make sure things are labelled to
match. Jim is learning disabled and I need to ask questions at least five
ways to get an intelligible answer. So today we will spend opening up all
the switches and putting on red and black tape according to some drawings that
I do not understand.
Last time we labelled the wires going into the breaker box with white tape
that Jim gave us to write on. The writing comes off if you touch it. First
we spent a few hours figuring out what went where because it had not been
labelled to start with and each cable has three or more wires and we had
identify the cable.
I also want to tape the four different cables (or more) going into each box
and keep a list of what goes where in the house.
This morning I have time to cook breakfast/lunch/supper while also talking
to Jim about cables and labels.
2-way switches do not need labelling since the white and black can go on
either of the two screws. Jim says most electricians do not label things like
this but he clearly instructed our friend to do it, and how to do it, and drew
it up, and our friend tends to ignore all of Jim's painstaking drawings so
I need to learn to understand them somehow.
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keesan
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response 61 of 191:
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Jan 31 15:59 UTC 2013 |
I am allowed to put white tape on the cables and label them N or S (north or
south). I want to also put colored tape on each wire the same color as each
screw that it goes to so they get reconnected propertly when we take apart
all the switches to put on wall board, which the switches will end up on top
of surface mounted. I am NOT supposed to used the following colors of tape:
red, black, white (these are used in other ways such as when a black is
labeled red or vice versa or a white is labelled black). I need to reserve
yellow for interconnects. I can't use green for some reason. This I think
leaves blue, brown, grey, and purple.
Jim showed me the diagram he printed with two 3-way and one 4-way switch and
lots of red, black, white, and white labelled with black lines and said to
just label everything like that. Which means nothing to me. I think what
happened is one of the red lines ended up on a screw that should have had a
black line - maybe I can put a red dot next to that screw?
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keesan
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response 62 of 191:
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Jan 31 16:20 UTC 2013 |
Jim came up with a simple solution. White writeable tape to distinguish
cables (N vs S 14-2, maybe also between two 14-3 cables). A 3-way switch
has 1 "common" screw on one side to which you connect the black wire from the
14-2, and two screws on the other side to which you connect the black and the
red from the 14-3 (all "hot"). It is possible to confuse the two blacks, so
we put a bit of red tape on both ends of the black wire in each 14-3 cable
and that wire connects to one of the screws on the side of the switch with
2 screws. It does not matter which one. This should let us get the switches
reconnected the same way when they are redone. And make sure the south switch
controls the south lights because you connect the black wire of the south
cable to it. One of the double switch boxes has a second 14-3 cable in it
which needs figuring out how to label next, I think.
The bathroom circuit has only one pair of 3-way switches but we should still
put red tape on both ends of the black wire in the 14-3 cable.
The other room has two pairs of 3-way but no 4-way switch so we need to use
red tape as above and also white writeable tape for N/S cables (or at least
label both ends of one of them the same way so the north switch won't control
the south lights).
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nharmon
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response 63 of 191:
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Jan 31 16:41 UTC 2013 |
Is labeling wires N and S a standard practice? I've never heard of that
before.
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keesan
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response 64 of 191:
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Jan 31 16:42 UTC 2013 |
The whites should not have been marked with black because we did not follow
Jim's drawing but move the light to the last of the switches instead of the
first. So we need to remove the black tape from the white wire. It made more
sense physically to wire this way but Jim should have redone the drawing.
Too many electricians. Jim suggests numbered tags now.
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keesan
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response 65 of 191:
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Jan 31 16:51 UTC 2013 |
The N and S are so we don't end up controlling the north light with the south
switch and vice versa. It is probably not common to have two pairs of three
way switches and two sets of lights in one room.
The little tags are called wire markers. Stadium Hardware has them - a big
$10 package including letters and numbers. We can relabel the breaker box too.
The 3-way switches for two lights are in one box. It is required to label
the cables in machine wiring but not residential. We have three doors so
there is also the 4-way switch. You can now come into one end of the kitchen
and turn on lights at that end, then go into the bathroom while turning off
the kitchen light, or turn on the light at the other end of the kitchen and
go there, then go out the front door and turn off that light.
Most people don't wire all their switches twice while building, or change
two switches at one time, so don't need to be so careful.
The idea now is to put matching numbers next to each pair of wires and screws.
Jim says this will impress the inspector.
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rcurl
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response 66 of 191:
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Jan 31 21:16 UTC 2013 |
Re #56: "The distinction between ground and neutral is vital."
Of course. The neutral is meant to carry the full current, while the
ground is meant to bleed off leakage to earth-ground. They are still
essentialy just in parallel. Since the neutral carries the current, a
voltage on it appears at the applicance, due to the resistance of the
neutral wire to earth-ground.
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keesan
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response 67 of 191:
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Jan 31 22:01 UTC 2013 |
The older cables had ground wires smaller than the others.
We accidentally used some and had to replace it.
Today we replaced an extension box with rounded corners with one with square
corners so there was less of a gap.
We then discovered Lowes had said they have wire markers with letters and
numbers (0-15, A-Z) but sold us 1-45 (10 copies of each) so we will mark
the cables and wires another day.
We planned out where to put bathroom and living room 3-way switch boxes (gang
boxes in the bathroom adjusted for 1/2" or 3/4" wall thickness depending
whether it would be wood trim or backer board and tile, and square handy boxes
in the other two locations fed through holes in the board behind them
eventually) and where to drill more holes to feed the bathroom switch, then
light, then switch. First we need to plan the two bathroom outlets (bath
and laundry circuits, one outlet each) to know how big a hole to drill.
We chose and placed two gang boxes for the two bathroom 3-way switches
(one of which may be lighted if it fits in the box which is embedded in
a post).
We may need plastic conduit rather than EMT metal in the bathroom, like
what we used on the porch.
The conduit may go through the kitchen ventilation shaft. We need to plan
and maybe install some of the ventilation ductwork first, or maybe put in all
the wiring and then some wallboard before the ductwork. Everything comes
first. It gets worse with plumbing fixtures and tile.
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keesan
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response 68 of 191:
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Jan 31 23:19 UTC 2013 |
14-2 wire from junction box to first 3-way switch box (ordinary 3-way switch).
14-3 wire from switch box to temporary ceiling light fixture, placed so that
3 aimable spotlights can shine at tub, toilet, and sink.
14-3 wire from fixture to the other 3-way switch box, embedded in a double
2x4 column with the back drilled and then chiseled out to accept a 1/2" NM
connector with screws that take more space.
Boxes screwed into place. Cable housings stripped. We decided to exchange
the decora 3-way switch that we exchanged a non-decora 4-way switch for for
a lighted decora 3-way switch that can be found when entering a dark bathroom
from the bedroom (future living room) and since we have 1-45 instead of 0-15
and A-Z, we will stop by the hardware store again before actually wiring the
switches (carefully labelled this time).
6 pm - good time for a lunch break. I had a real hot breakfast (stir fried
cabbage on cold macaroni) and brought a cold microwaved potato, some celery
sticks, and a piece of cheese for extra calories. When we finish downstairs
lighting (one more double pair of 3-way switches) and the smoke alarms, we
might go celebrate at Asia House lunch buffet which the reviews say has
greasy salty food but I could use the calories.
The screws in the NM connector needed to be shortened to fit in the hole
in the column. We have a bolt cutter that we used to shorten hardibacker
screws when they hit the wood furring strip. But we used a screw cutter on
these screws to preserve the threads in these machine screws (aka bolts).
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keesan
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response 69 of 191:
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Feb 1 04:07 UTC 2013 |
The screw cutter was part of a wire stripper (we have about five of them).
It turns out that the 1/2" deep ceiling pans (round boxes) that we planned
to use for our surface-mounted fixtures are 6 cu in, and if you run two cables
into them you need 10 cu in. Jim had drawn the bathroom wired with the light
last and one cable, and we wired it with the light in the middle and two
cables. So we decided to use round 5.5" wiremold ceiling boxes above our 5"
round IKEA 3-bulb adjustable spotlights ($7.18 box, $9.99 fixture) in the
bathroom and also for the two kitchen lights with two cables and we may as
well use them everywhere else. Instead of rewiring the bathroom.
Stadium Hardware has wire markers with 2 sets of A-Z and lots of numbers up
to about 60. Lowes sold us 1-45 (10 sets each). We need to trade for 10 each
off A-Z and 1-15. The hardware store is used to seeing us twice a day and
when I returned an unlighted 3-way switch with no receipt asked if I was
getting the 5% discount. Turns out I am eligible as a 'senior'.
Jim is researching bathroom heat. There are rectangular models that fit in
or on the wall and blow up, down or sideways depending how they are installed.
Our only free wall is next to the toilet. They could go on the ceiling and
blow sideways. They are available with built-in thermostats (not so useful
on a ceiling) or you can buy a wall thermostat. About $150 on ebay with
thermostat.
Ebay also has fan-forced bathroom ceiling heaters, round, 3" deep, by Broan,
for $95 plus $8 shipping. 1250 watts. Should be enough to heat my entire
downstairs, with a programmable thermostat to get time of day rate. Just
leave the bathroom doors open to the other two rooms. I also have two new
in box 750W hydronic electric baseboard heaters for those rooms. The
programmable thermostats are an extra $45, which is about half what I expect
my annual heat bill to be, but since I am trying to prove a point (keep
heating bills down while not overtaxing the electric company at peak hours)
I may get them anyway. Also a time of day timer and a minute timer for the
water heater. In winter run it during off peak hours, during non-heating
season (April through October) only for 10 min before I shower.
A 1250W hydronic heater (quiet, runs cooler, temperature stays more constant)
is about $200 on ebay. Plus thermostat. I only paid about $1000 for the
insulation which is making it possible to use less heat. 9" in walls, ,15"
in ceilings.
I think we need some sort of ceiling box for the smoke alarms....
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rcurl
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response 70 of 191:
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Feb 1 05:31 UTC 2013 |
This all reminds me...For the first time that I can recall an ordinary toggle
wall switch in our house has become intermittant. I've never seen that happen
before. I thought they were indestructible....
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keesan
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response 71 of 191:
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Feb 1 14:10 UTC 2013 |
Light switches do wear out like other mechanical objects.
The Broan heater is common on ebay for $45-65 buy it now. I bid $45 on one
that is $60 buy-it-now.
Thermostats (this needs one added, or an on-off switch) can be 24V (commonly
used with furnaces, require a relay and transformer) or line-voltage (SP 120V
or DP 240V). The non-programmable ones start at $1 (plus $4 postage - for
some reason most of the thermostats, which are very small and lightweight,
are being sold with postage up to $12 - probably so nobody will return them).
The programmable 24V start at about $7, programmable line-voltage are about
$50 or more. I should probably get at least one for the house so I can set
the heat to go on from 7-11 am and again from 7-11 pm when the rates are
lower. I don't want heat at night. The heat might drop as much as 5 deg over
the day if it is really cold out and I don't cook.
We need to exchange the 1/2" deep round ceiling pans for 1" deep wiremold
ceiling boxes that can legally hold the connections from 2 or more wires.
2 wires needs 10 cu inches and the pans hold 6, wiremold 22 cu in.
I need to go cook breakfast, pack my cold potato for lunch, etc.
With luck, the holes in the bathroom joists made for lighting are large
enough for two more wires for heat and thermostat. I wish we had the time
to plan further ahead.
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keesan
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response 72 of 191:
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Feb 1 14:44 UTC 2013 |
Jim says to make all our holes 3/4" so we can put 3 or 4 cables through them.
Stay at least 2" down from the tops of joists, and try for the upper corners
(above a 45 deg line) where nothing is in tension just compression.
He is making me breakfast, how nice. And lunch for our friend. I am getting
two hours off in mid afternoon to play in my Friday recorder group (which I
have missed most sessions of since November) while the friend goes to fix
someone else's problems for 'an hour'. I even remembered to email myself
along with the other members a reminder of the monthly large-group meeting
next Monday. (I skipped the last one).
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keesan
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response 73 of 191:
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Feb 2 11:37 UTC 2013 |
Spent the morning determining that Lowes does not sell the cheaper round
wiremold ceiling box listed at their website except mail order, and bought
the more expensive ones designed to hold heavy fans instead. Then spent two
hours with our builder friend figuring out how to use square wiremold boxes
for light switches on interior walls (two doubles now need replacing) and went
to the dollar store and got him some reading glasses that don't fall off so
he can see what he is wiring.
Did our usual snow shoveling of two neighbors (widowed, divorced) with health
problems and had tea with one who offered to help plaster and will also take
us to IKEA Wednesday for light fixtures.
Played recorder at a house with both kinds of bathroom heater that we are
considering. He told us not to get the ceiling kind if we had any wall space
because the heat does not reach the floor, so Jim will use the one I bid $45
on at ebay. The other is now available for $80 including thermostat, which
simplifies our wiring. I need to order it so we can wire the bathroom light
switch around it this week.
The replacement wire markers were supposed to be numbers and letters but were
marked 'living room', 'garbage disposal' etc. so we took apart five switches
and marked them with colored tape to make sure they go back together right.
This weekend my builder friend promised to work for two other people. I will
be plastering with architect friend from 10 until we finish, and working with
the other friend in the evening on more wiring while the neighbor mixes
mortar. I get Monday evening off after 7 pm.
A very kind friend took away several large cardboard boxes of Jim's collection
of dead-battery power tools with the dead batteries, plus two jump starters
with dead batteries, to see if any of his batteries fit and recycle what
needed recycling, so there are now a few more square feet of living room space
to walk through. He offered to also find homes for some other stuff.
Restore had some power tools without batteries. New tools are cheaper than
the replacement batteries ($15 at Harbor Freight for a cordless drill).
I wish I could stop waking up at 5 am.
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keesan
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response 74 of 191:
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Feb 2 19:06 UTC 2013 |
We might finish the skim coating today if we work late enough. About half
done in only 3 hours. Nice working at 47 F.
I just turned down a large Albanian translation job. This is not good for
business.
Back to mixing mortar.
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