response 51 of 78:

Feb 7 03:55 UTC 1998

I didn't think I was twisting Valerie's words, but maybe there was something
in her "I agree with Mary" in response 27 that I didn't understand.  Mary's
#25, which Valerie was agreeing with, was one of the many responses in this
item which have expressed the viewpoint that any cut in dial-in lines, and
having some of our local users telnet in, would be an unthinkable degradation
of service.  If I misunderstood any of that, perhaps somebody can enlighten
me.

In fact, I have no idea what the perceived problem with telnetting in is. 
It's various other people in this item who are saying that we shouldn't cut
dial ins back and encourage people who can telnet in to do so.  Maybe it's
that the old Internet link was slow, so people assume the new one must be too.
Maybe it's the queue.  Assuming the problem is the queue, I pointed out that
there would be a way to exempt local users from it.  I said I was
uncomfortable with making that distinction, but several people in this item
have said that local users should dial in to avoid the queue.  If the goal
is that local users should avoid the queue, then why not take that to its
logical conclusion?  It certainly wouldn't be any more discriminatory than
what we have now, and it would be a lot cheaper.

No, I'm not complaining about my access to Grex.  If I can't wait in the
queue, I have access to other systems on Grex's network that Grex treats the
same way it treats the terminal server, so I can be treated as local even
though I don't have a spare local to Ann Arbor phone line to use for my
Grexing.

What I am upset about is the repeated statements from peopel who really ought
to know better, going on and on about how the dial up users are the ones who
support us, and how the dial up users should be our first priority.  Even if
we accept that most support is local, local *does not* equal dial up, and
supporters do not equal dial up.  When we have board members who wno't
acknowledge that, we have a problem.

response 53 of 78:

Feb 7 08:15 UTC 1998

We should probably have many fewer ICNet calls.  That router didn't seem to
do well under heavy load, and we were part way into the year before we
switched to a modern modem for it.  I built the machine I'm using for a router
at home largely as a clone of gryps (but with a newer version of the OS). 
It's much less loaded, and therefore very stable.  It tends to have to hang
up and redial once or twice a week.  Last time I looked at Gryps, it was doing
about the same.

response 57 of 78:

Feb 7 14:19 UTC 1998

Steve, you accuse me, specifically, as having said  that "any cut
in dial-in lines, [...], would be an unthinkable degradation of
service."  Then you asked to be "enlightened" if you misunderstood
any of what was said.

We'll, you are being enlightened.  What I *said* was, "I certainly hope
we are extremely careful about degrading service (reducing dial-in access
and shifting users to slow and limited web access) all the while looking
for more donors."  I am open to hearing your comments on this issue
but you really should calm down, drop the defensiveness, and state 
your case without exaggerating and misrepresenting what others 
have said.

response 59 of 78:

Feb 7 23:30 UTC 1998

Re #54:  Well, if you don't like the term "one-time expenses" then call them
"non-monthly expenses" - whatever.  Yes, the PO Box, the domain name, and
the two State forms are "regular" expenses.  This year we've already paid for
the PO Box, we don't have to pay for grex.org, and we have to submit one of
the two forms.  (The other is a once-every-5-years thing.)  So of our $1300,
a total of $10 can be expected to come from those expenses you site.

Great.  We have our first entry on the budget sheet.  Do we have any others?

response 63 of 78:

Feb 8 17:28 UTC 1998

(For what it's worth, I'm local.  I support Grex a lot.  I have local phone
lines, and any number of computers to use them.  I telnet.  I haven't dialed
into grex since we got the ISDN.  I can see what Steve is getting at. 
Valerie, in resp:55 you said "The maximum number of local users on Grex in 
that time was 11 users.  The maximum size of the telnet queue was 40 people 
waiting."  I'm assuming here that your "local users" means dialup users, 
because that's what we were talking about, and because determining "local
users" from ip addresses and domain names would be impossible. If that's the
case, you were doing exactly what Steve was complaining about, namely 
associating "local users" with "dialup users."  I am certainly the one and
not the other.  (Now, if I wrong as to what you meant by "local users", I
humbly appologize and take it all back.) )

response 65 of 78:

Feb 8 17:30 UTC 1998

(#63 slipped in.)

response 67 of 78:

Feb 8 20:47 UTC 1998

*Most* of our *users* use telnet, and have no choice.

I almost never use a dialup to access grex.

I'd have to say that I think in some senses, our regular dial-up users
are spoiled.  I believe it's relatively rare for them to get a busy
signal, or to have to wait at all before getting on grex.  I can
remember that m-net spent *years* in a state where you generally *had*
to wait until 1-2am to dial in, if you didn't want to spend hours
attack-dialing m-net.

response 69 of 78:

Feb 9 00:29 UTC 1998

Here are the notes from the meeting:

Grex Budget Meeting 2/8/98 
valerie, janc, other, aruba, dpc.  Latecomers:  scg, mta, STeve.
Thanks to Eric (other) for bringing cookies.

Aruba wanted meeting because of worries about how we have been spending 
in the last year.   Would like to have budgets fom things like 
advertising.  

The money situation:
A 3-month cushion would be about $2000.  About $7,000/year income (last 
year $8,800, $6405 from membership dues.  We have roughly $1300 beyond 
currently known expenses (plus another $200 we have in bank over 
cushion)for 1998.

Things to spend money on:
Valerie would like an advertising budget, maybe $20-30/month.  General 
agreement on this.
New mail machine:  most of this js being donated, but may need to 
purchase a disk drive (maybe a 3 gig disk, possibly SCSI?)
670 spares:  janc thinks about $650 for this:  ($720 was what we paid 
for motherboard and CPU modules)
Some discussion from other's questions about Centrex benefits, 
possibility of using another local telco.
Possible that we could lose our current ISDN connection, or we may have 
to move the line some time (assume our cushion will cover this).

Advertising can be stopped at any time, so it can be a somewhat higher 
priority.
Mail machine disk:  want 2-3 days worth of buffer.  May make sense to do 
it SCSI?  STeve says 22MB/day, so an IDE disk is fine.  $300 covers all 
we need for this machine.
Spare 670 parts:  STeve says he uas seen MBs as cheap as $350.  $650 
is a good budget.
Other items: backup tapes, backup tape cleaner.  Spares for mail 
machine?  Spare ISDN router?  ISDN surge protector?  
A UPS?  How about budgeting to start saving for a UPS?  About 1200VA 
needed, but could be done w/ 2 smaller units. Scott recently purchased 
an APC 400VA unit for about $140.  STeve is worried about upcoming power 
deregulation affecting service, while Janc thinks it is too expensive as 
insurance.

What we decided on for priorities:
1.  670 spares  ($650)
2.  Mail machine parts ($300)
3.  Advertising ($360 over 12 months, since it will be spent slowly 
it can be cut later if there are money problems)

Ways to increase income:
T-shirts:  need to push the Grex Store products a bit more.  The Store 
is going to be administrator,  but hasn't gotten the inventory yet.  
Possible to hawk shirts at things like JCC sale or Art Fair?  Old shirts 
didn't sell well, new shirts look more interesting.  (janc) How about 
T-shirts that are more generic Internet/computer to be used as 
fundraising to non-Grexers?
Auctions:  1997 brought in $1700 in income from two auctions.  Aruba 
willing to do (keep track of bids and deliveries) 2 auctions in 1998.
(mta) Poignant Plecostemus benefit:  still possible, had trouble finding 
a venue to do it in last year.
Getting party people helping out on publicity?  Maybe things like 
posting flyers, car washes, etc.?  Janc thinks this should be a social 
activity where groups are involved, so that it will be fun to do.
501c(3):  the usual arguments for and against.
Possibility of getting grants?  Some discussion, possible ways of 
getting grant money, concerns about it.

(This is where I had to leave the meeting)

response 73 of 78:

Feb 9 13:31 UTC 1998

No problem.  I'll wait the usual 30 days then put them in
/usr/local/grexdoc/archives/budget/.  I'll also go back and
try to find the last plan the budget meeting and if there
were notes, enter those.

Was there any type of consensus raised about some minimum
amount of money which should be considered "untouchable"
unless Grex was going to be down and out, as in off-line?
I think sometimes having such a figure would come in handy
next time someone wants to buy a widget and it looks like
that $200 isn't really that important.  I mean, if it's
$200 out of a $1500 balance it seems easier than if it's
the last $200 of discretionary money left.