response 51 of 176:

Mar 12 05:33 UTC 2006

I think Richard's true nature has really come out in this item. In #41
he complains that "cyklone resorts to personal attacks and cut downs
while making no effort to back it up". And then later on in the SAME
ITEM, flings personal attacks at me. It seems that Richard can dish it
out but can't take it.

Here is a clue Richard. I grew up on free school lunches and lived in
subsidized housing. After my parents divorced I watched my mother go
from working minimum-wage jobs to graduating college. She did so with
grants and student loans. She didn't cheat the system and she worked her
ass off to provide for me and my sister. So why don't you think about
that before you tell me I was spoiled again.

You see, if you really knew me you would also realize how off-base your
comments regarding my teenage employment really are. To afford video
games? You really are a jackass. I got my HAM ticket in 1996, and had to
get a job in order to buy a radio. I also bought a 386 computer to learn
linux. A 386...in 1997.

I don't know why we expect Richard to be anything but completely
ignorant on issues like poverty. He doesn't even take the time to read
other peoples' items. Like when he accused me of spreading a myth about
welfare recipients not wanting to get off of welfare...BASED ON WHAT?
That two people left their jobs in order to avoid losing welfare? That
indicates a weakness in the welfare system, not in these people's
character. But what the hell, he might as well put words in my mouth so
he has something to post about.

I'm done arguing with Richard. If he isn't even going to read what you
write, and only respond with the typical liberal talking points, there
really is no point.

response 53 of 176:

Mar 12 06:47 UTC 2006

You know, I would prefer it if we all could try to lay off the personal
attacks for a while. If you dont like richard's ideas, why not try
attacking them?

response 55 of 176:

Mar 12 19:27 UTC 2006

How about presenting coherently some "important liberal positions" to set an
example for us? 

response 57 of 176:

Mar 12 21:03 UTC 2006

Re #55: The most obvious would be that concentrating wealth and power in the
hands of a small elite is against the best interests of the country.  The
other would be that the true measure of a society is how well it treats the
least fortunate and least powerful of its members.

response 59 of 176:

Mar 12 21:18 UTC 2006

I guess I'm glad to hear that. However, I've run into enough like him in A2,
and have heard other conservatives caricaturing his "type" enough times to
believe that he and his ilk do cause incredible harm to the cause of
liberalism.

response 61 of 176:

Mar 12 22:40 UTC 2006

Well, nharmon, it's politics.  The whole *point* is to have differences
and either resolve them or get as much of your own way as you can.  The
parts we all agree on are by definition non-political.

It doesn't mean "their" side is inherently bad, or that "our" side is
better (whichever side you happen to be on).  Some of the differences
are crucially important.  But the great part is that we manage to come
to some sort of decision -- on everything -- without being at war with
one another.

response 63 of 176:

Mar 13 00:44 UTC 2006

cyklone said:

"In part because it's the personal inability of liberals such as him 
to coherently present important liberal positions that undermines the 
credibility of the positions themselves. As someone who believes 
liberalism has some very important goals. I've had it with the damage 
the likes of Richard have done to the good name of liberalism. If 
those who support and advocate honest liberalism don't make the effort 
to confront those who hold liberalism back, how can anyone expect 
America as a whole to take liberalism seriously (as opposed to seeing 
it as some easy target for conservatives to bash)?
"

thats ridiculous.  cyklone you attack me as not presenting important 
liberal ideas, yet YOU don't present any ideas at all.  At least I 
do.  In fact the vast majority of all your posts on grex are personal 
attacks.  I can't remember the last time cyklone posted to present an 
IDEA as opposed to attacking me or someone else.  

And jep, my ideas are not simplistic.  They are basic ideas that all 
liberal democrats basically adhere to, such as that government is a 
good thing and a valuable and necessary thing and that the role it 
plays ought to be far more than just fighting wars.  Social spending, 
done in the right ways, is a good thing.  The government is of, by and 
for the people, it is the great experiment in representative 
democracy.  Jep, I want you to answer me, what is SIMPLISTIC about 
that?  You are as bad as cyklone, you attack without presenting many 
ideas of your own.

All I want is a government that gives every citizen a fair chance to 
be who and what they want to be, and doesn't force people into 
situations they can't get out of.  This is why I support raising the 
minimum wage, tying it to inflation and creating the incentives to run 
government better and more efficiently, while at the same time 
acknowledging the responsibilities of government and what it is 
supposed to be, which is far far more than just a mechanism to raise 
an army.

jep tell me what are your ideas?  I haven't heard many from you, only 
you calling mine simplistic.  What are yours?  Besides outlawing 
abortion I mean.

I'd ask cyklone for ideas but it is clear he doesn't have any.  He 
will only ever attack me and others.  Better to present ideas and be 
ridiculed as simplistic, than to present no ideas at all and just sit 
around "picking holes" in other people's ideas.

response 65 of 176:

Mar 13 00:56 UTC 2006

I think you'll find, if you review my responses in the political items
(and for that matter, all items) I really don't do much personal
attacks.   I am generally pretty much interested in debate.  I also
think I listen to people's points pretty well and respond to what they say. 

response 67 of 176:

Mar 13 02:32 UTC 2006

richard's a sidewalk thumper

response 69 of 176:

Mar 13 05:44 UTC 2006

Re #57: those liberal concepts have been put forward very strongly by most
Democratic leaders. 

response 71 of 176:

Mar 13 12:43 UTC 2006

Being lectured by a right winger on the "realities of history". Or of anything
else, actually. Now I've seen everything.

response 73 of 176:

Mar 13 14:16 UTC 2006

Richard says "cyklone you attack me as not presenting important liberal 
ideas." Ummm, no. If you would learn to read, you'd see I said you had a 
problem presenting COHERENT liberal ideas. Oh what a difference a word 
makes. You have a made "word" mistakes several times this past month. 
There's a pattern there you may want to look at. In fact, if you actually 
set aside your emotions for a minute and take the time to read what I 
wrote, you'd see I was criticizing the FORM of what you say, not the 
substance. Do you even recognize that when you botch the form part, the 
substance part gets short shrift?