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Grex > Agora56 > #125: Kludge Report Part C -- Die, You Little Black Babies | |
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| 25 new of 331 responses total. |
keesan
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response 50 of 331:
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Feb 25 17:50 UTC 2006 |
Late term abortions are often done because a genetic defect is not detected
until then. In many cases the infant would die shortly after birth. Birth
endangers the mother. However, so do late term abortions.
Who should pay for the maintenance of defective babies, the mother who wanted
to abort the baby, or the society that prevented her from doing so?
Nathan, if a premature baby, weighing say 5 lb, could only be kept alive by
being hooked up to someone's bloodstream for 2 months, would you volunteer?
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rcurl
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response 51 of 331:
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Feb 25 18:06 UTC 2006 |
That's near to what the Supreme Court concluded in Roe vs Wade. Not that
late term abortion is inhumane, of course, but just that it can be made
illegal.
"The Court ruled that the state cannot restrict a woman's right to an abortion
during the first trimester, the state can regulate the abortion procedure
during the second trimester "in ways that are reasonably related to maternal
health," and in the third trimester, demarcating the viability of the fetus,
a state can choose to restrict or even to proscribe abortion as it sees fit."
(from the Wikipedia)
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nharmon
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response 52 of 331:
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Feb 25 19:03 UTC 2006 |
Ok Sindi, then would you support a law that only allowed late-term
abortions if it is likely the infant would not survive birth, or for
very long after birth? I think I would if the procedure was modified to
treat the infant as a person and not a pound of flesh.
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richard
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response 53 of 331:
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Feb 26 01:40 UTC 2006 |
If Roe were overturned, and congress passed a federal law making
abortion illegal, you would see abortions treated as a capital crime
like any other murder. Meaning that if you support the death penalty
for anyone who commits murder, you logically must then support a
pregnant mother getting the death penalty if she's had an abortion.
Or are you going to give life in prison to a woman who has an abortion
because she's been raped by a close relative, or her life was in danger
if she'd given birth?
The point is that it is EASY to be pro-life when you don't have to deal
with the consequences of that position, and enforcing laws that would
outlaw it. Until you have to start throwing women in jail as "baby
killers" Until you start having to force women suspected of having had
abortions to submit to medical testing to try and prove it, so they can
be jailed.
Being pro-life is one thing, but abortion being illegal just wouldn't
work as a practical matter.
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kingjon
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response 54 of 331:
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Feb 26 01:47 UTC 2006 |
If I had my way, *performing* an abortion would be included in the definition
of the crime of infanticide; someone seeking an abortion would be in the eyes
of the law on the level of someone who hires a gang to kill someone. The mother
would only be charged with the infanticide herself if she performed the
abortion herself.
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richard
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response 55 of 331:
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Feb 26 01:55 UTC 2006 |
If you hire a hit man to commit a murder, you can get charged with that
murder. In the case of murder, you do not have to have held the murder
weapon in your hand and actually have done the act, to get charged with
the crime.
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nharmon
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response 56 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:00 UTC 2006 |
Richard says it is easy to be pro-life when you don't have to deal with
the consequences of that position. I might also add that it is equally
as easy to be pro-choice. This is why a lot of people have to dehumanize
pre-born infants otherwise morality and your conscience stop jiving with
your politics.
IMHO, Intact D&X is murder. Taking plan B is not.
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richard
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response 57 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:08 UTC 2006 |
Of course its easy to be pro-choice because with that position, you
aren't required to pass and enforce laws to prevent something from
happening. And you aren't required to raise taxes to build more jails
to house all those women and doctors you plan to arrest.
Also there is no such thing as a "pre-born infant", that is more bull
from the pro-life side. An infant is a human being who has been born,
by definition, you can't be "pre-born"
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kingjon
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response 58 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:15 UTC 2006 |
And the idea that an infant is only a human being that has been born is a
falsehood put about by the pro-choice side. :)
(By that definition, *I* -- along with every living human being over the age of
0 -- am an infant. I protest! :})
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slynne
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response 59 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:26 UTC 2006 |
Just out of curiosity, nharmon, do you know the circumstances where a
D&X is likely to be performed?
I think that it is a procedure used most often in cases where the fetus
has a disease called hydrocephalus. It is a condition where fluid builds
in the brain, causing the head to enlarge. The fetus is alive but will
not live for more than a few hours at most after birth. The head of the
fetus in this case is enlarged to the point where a vaginal birth is not
possible. The options are essentially, a C-Section which is VERY
invasive and which has a lot of risks or a D&X where the baby is
delivered vaginally by collapsing the head (and killing the fetus). This
procedure is much much better for the health of the mother than a
C-section. The outcome is essentially the same except in the latter
case, the fetus dies a couple of hours sooner.
It isnt like women are sitting around with healthy pregnancies going
"Shoot, I've been pregnant for eight and a half months, I cant take it
anymore, GIVE me a D and X!"
Ok, ok, at least one of my friends has said that but it was a hot summer
and I am sure everyone will be happy to know that she gave birth to a
healthy girl three weeks later
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slynne
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response 60 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:38 UTC 2006 |
Hmmm. I did some digging and I was eventually able to find the website
of an abortion clinic that will do elective third trimester abortions.
However, I would be very surprised if they have a big demand for their
services.
I would support laws that prohibited third trimester abortions unless
the health of the mother were at stake except that I think those might
delay appropriate medical action in some cases if the parties were
worried about which side of the law a particular procedure might fall.
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richard
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response 61 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:39 UTC 2006 |
kingjon said:
"And the idea that an infant is only a human being that has been born
is a falsehood put about by the pro-choice side."
It is not a falsehood. An infant is by definition one who is
in "infancy", as in one who's life has just started. A fetus is not an
infant, because when a fetus is in the woman's womb, it is not part of
its own life, it is part of its mother's life. The mother is not an
infant and the fetus is part of the mother's body. When a human being
breathes on its own, that is when its life starts, and when it starts
the "infancy" or beginning of its own life. A fetus CANNOT be an
infant in the womb because it has not begun its infancy.
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slynne
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response 62 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:42 UTC 2006 |
I agree that a fetus is not an infant. But I think it is a bit of a
stretch to say that a viable fetus isnt alive.
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kingjon
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response 63 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:43 UTC 2006 |
That is what is called "petitio principii", or "begging the question." You
define life (or infancy) as beginning at the first breath, and then say that by
definition a fetus cannot be a living human being (or an infant). I can use my
own definition and say that "by definition" anything at all, but I'm choosing
not to.
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kingjon
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response 64 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:44 UTC 2006 |
#62 slipped.
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keesan
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response 65 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:52 UTC 2006 |
Infant has several definitions, the most common one being early childhood,
not yet capable of speech, coming from the French meaning incapable of speech.
Child - an unborn or recently born person. So a child can be unborn but I
have never heard of infant being used that way. Child is related to a Gothic
word for womb. Life does not start at conception because the egg and sperm
are already alive. A fertilized egg can become two embryos up to about 2
weeks. Towards the end of the 2 weeks it is more likely to become conjoined
twins. 90% of pairs of identical twins do not get born - one or both die in
the womb due to competition. Is a fertilized egg that splits into two embryos
one or two independent lives, before it splits?
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nharmon
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response 66 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:55 UTC 2006 |
Re 59: I am aware of the technical procedure of a D&X as well as a D&E,
but have not found a lot of information on the statistics regarding the
situations where those procedures are undertaken. I don't disagree with
you that if the mother's health is at risk and the child won't live
anyway, an abortion might be the best decision. Just please do me one
favor...in ending the life of a late-term fetus (thank you Richard, i'll
stop calling it an infant) please at least give it the same
consideration you would a livestock animal being butchered. As these
procedures are practiced currently, they are barbaric and inhumane.
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keesan
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response 67 of 331:
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Feb 26 02:57 UTC 2006 |
Let's ban butchering of livestock, which is inhumane and unnecessary, and
kills life.
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nharmon
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response 68 of 331:
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Feb 26 03:02 UTC 2006 |
There are a lot of different opinions on when life actually begins. Here
is a good article that I found which explains them:
http://www.devbio.com/article.php?id=162
The Neurological view, which states "the beginning of human life should
be recognized as the time when a fetus acquires a recognizable EEG
pattern", makes the most sense to me.
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scholar
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response 69 of 331:
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Feb 26 03:18 UTC 2006 |
We must go with the MORAL view, which states that a parent may, without
reprecussion, kill their child up to a month after they are born.
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rcurl
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response 70 of 331:
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Feb 26 03:23 UTC 2006 |
I have no problem with considering human life *continuous* before and through
the reproductive process. But that is irrelevant to the question. The question
is when does the woman have authority over her own body and its functions,
and when does she lose that authority. All this quibbling over "when human
life begins" is beside the point and biological nonsense.
I support the Supreme Court's division of the question into the three
trimesters and right of the woman to not have her health jeopardized.
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marcvh
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response 71 of 331:
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Feb 26 03:29 UTC 2006 |
I agree. Questions of "when does life begin?" or "when does an embryo
become human?" are red herrings which are not particularly relevant to the
legal questions; people like to bring them up as a distraction so they
can debate how many zygotes can dance on the head of a pin.
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nharmon
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response 72 of 331:
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Feb 26 04:00 UTC 2006 |
Do you consider it wrong for a parent to neglect a child?
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marcvh
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response 73 of 331:
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Feb 26 04:23 UTC 2006 |
Depends who gets to define "wrong", "neglect" and "child."
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nharmon
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response 74 of 331:
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Feb 26 04:27 UTC 2006 |
My point is that defining the point at which life reaches personhood is
important for defining the responsibilities that people have as a result
of their own choices.
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